Narrowing down..

[Dekka]

Well Aleron seems to think Maf (and others) assume a puppy can come pre programed for agility. Ie instad dog.

Maf has trained two dogs, one very difficult dog for agility. (or so she claims

Who better to know that a dog takes training than someone who has trained two dogs the masters level. One is 4 Qs away from her ATCH (thats a championship.. I am so jealous lol)

Now either Aleron is a dolt. Which I don't believe. Or she really does think Maf thinks she can by an agility dog that needs no training or 'insta agility dog'.

These two statements are logically untenable. So either Aleron has no experience in these things, or she is calling Maf a liar.

(Also Maf has repeatedly said she wants to stack the deck in her favour... not get a dog who needs no training, ust one that has drives... I am not sure how you can get from that she wants a dog who needs no training)

So for those who dont' see it as Aleron saying Maf knows nothing about agility dogs or training a dog for agility... then how do you see Aleron's posts?

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by sillysally

I don't see where Maf is being made out to be a liar at all-that's quite a leap....

Ya think? All this because I posted a two sentence quote, replying to someone who didn't think English Cockers or Toy Poodles could do well in agility. I'm starting to think Dekka and Mafia might just like to argue. I mean...does this quote offend anyone other than Dekka and Mafia to the point of arguing over it for several pages?

"You can’t buy a good agility dog. But you can train it. Of course, you can’t win WC with a Samoyed. But if winning WC is your goal, you probably won’t win it anyway."
Steps to find a good agility dog

Dekka, I'm curious what level and venue your dogs are currently competing? Right now I have two dogs competing in AKC Open, one should move to Excellent soon and one in Novice, should move to Open soon. One just needs one more leg and the other is just starting AKC Open but is started on his UACH (I'm not inclined to travel for and so who knows if he'll ever get it). I do CPE too but to be honest, I don't keep good track of their legs in that venue because they need so many legs in so many different things organizational skills are not my strong point Obviously, since I don't even keep track of all of the titles my dogs earn I trial and show my dogs for fun, not to measure their or my worth. There are some really awesome dogs who have a hard time getting out of Novice (my GSD was one of them, know a few more right now) and there are MACHs who just don't excite me at all.

[Dekka]

I haven't done much in the last few years.. but

Kaiden is in Masters Snooker and Masters jumpers and adv everything else. Oh ETA he has Qs in masters classes, not just 'there' (he competes about once a year.. so thats not tooo bad lol) He is one leg away from a CDX. He has entered 3 rally trials and has a RNMCL and a couple fo other legs in team and Adv.

Ferret (a JRT I had when I was doing things) had her CD and a HIT.

Dekka is one leg away from her CD.. not much but as she only hit two trials when she was one.. She has her RAMCL. She is advanced everything in AAC. She is almost out of level 3 CPE (soo many Qs so few trials)

Bounce just started and has a few legs of level 2 CPE.

Dash has his Junior straight racing title.

Dekka has a few dock dog legs, so did Zoe Kaiden has one pathetic jump lol.

Dekka, Kadien, Zoe, and Snip all have their GTG championship. In fact one year Zoe won the Canadian Nationals in GTG and in trailing and locating. Snip has many a reserve and champion ribbon from racing....

All this in far less than 7 years, not bad considering I have been a poor full time student for the last 6

I do it cause its fun. But to me if the dog isn't having a good time, I am not having a good time. For me its not about the Qs (lol ask anyone who watches me trial.. which is good as JRTs are not the breed to have if you like reliability.) But titles happen if you Q. You don't need to keep track.. just go to the web page and voila all your CPE legs are there (if they are updated)

Either way we weren't talking about me, but about Maf and you.. but since you started please list your dogs and their dog sport titles.

[elegy]

I suppose if I were the incredibly skilled Syliva Trkman, it wouldn't matter as much what dog I got. But I'm just average folks

The stuff that Steve brings to the table in agility, and I'm nowhere *near* competing, so this is not training or skills, but just who he is as a dog, is significant enough to have people remark that he's world-team quality. (Too bad I'm not.)

I didn't make that. I bought that.

[SaraB]

Originally Posted by elegy

I didn't make that. I bought that.

I think there is a difference in buying a border collie for a sport like agility than searching for a non-traditional agility dog that will be a natural in agility. To me, if I'm looking to be competitive, I'd be looking at different breeds, but to each their own. You can't buy a dog and assume they are going to rock at anything and you can't choose a breeder based solely on performance titles. I think the advice about choosing an individual dog based on the traits you are looking for is the most sound advice in this entire thread.

[Dekka]

Sara.. then how to you answer to the people who do produce successful sport dogs far more often than other breeders?

If there is no point to it, how are they doing it?

If someone wanted a conformation prospect would you be telling them that having ch dogs as a criteria would be silly?

The problem that in most cases you are looking at getting a puppy.. its so hard to tell what they will be like when they are grown. This is why if their ancestors all had X traits then its more likely (no one ever said a guarantee) that your pup will have those traits than buying pups from lines that dont' have X at all...

ETA we bought it in Dash and whippets aren't a typical high end agility dog.

[SaraB]

Originally Posted by Dekka

Sara.. then how to you answer to the people who do produce successful sport dogs far more often than other breeders?

If there is no point to it, how are they doing it?

If someone wanted a conformation prospect would you be telling them that having ch dogs as a criteria would be silly?

The problem that in most cases you are looking at getting a puppy.. its so hard to tell what they will be like when they are grown. This is why if their ancestors all had X traits then its more likely (no one ever said a guarantee) that your pup will have those traits than buying pups from lines that dont' have X at all...

I'm not saying don't go looking for a performance breeder, I'm saying that everyone puts so much emphasis on So-and-so's dogs who do awesome, when BYB, rescue and mixed breeds excel as well. People hype up certain breeders and expect to get nothing but stellar dogs and then they end up disappointed. There is variance in every litter, variance in every line, we are breeding dogs not cloning them. Variance happens. Choose an individual puppy, not a line.

Edited to add: structure is easier to breed for than temperament so your line about conformation dogs is not applicable.

[Dekka]

The thing with rescues is often you can test them out at an older stage. So breeds that dont' have a lot of rescues (if you like to stick to one breed) its too hard to find.

There is more to a good confo dog than just structure. I know of some lovely dogs who just didn't 'shine' in the ring. And its not temperament its drive we are talking about.

Of course there is variance. A few people, including myself have brought that up earlier. But there is less variance with a breeder (nto talking rescues) who has dogs from proven lines than one who breeds with no care to those drives.

[Moth]

Originally Posted by Dekka

There is more to a good confo dog than just structure. I know of some lovely dogs who just didn't 'shine' in the ring. And its not temperament its drive we are talking about.

I totally agree with this. Watson's dam is a gorgeous brindle. Structurally sound, but hated being in the show ring and would not show well to save her little life. Every time she was asked to show she would allow her tail to drop and droop

[HayleyMarie]

well this is a relief to know that it does not matter where I get my puppy from. I was so stressed with finding the perfect breeder, I might as well go to a BYB. Maybe they will have a puppy that will fit my needs. Makes things so much easier. PHEW!!!