Narrowing down..

[MafiaPrincess]

I love her.. She at one point had a balance I adored.. confo dogs (so they were my ideal of pretty) mixed with MACHS and varying hunter levels... PERFECT. Sadly she quit showing and her dogs got that 'fieldy' look I don't like so much..

I actually looked her up last month just to see what she was doing, her website didn't work.. and her blog hadn't been updated in an age. She lived through a cancer scare not too many years ago. I hope she hasn't had another health issue. I still liked lurking to see what she was up to.

[Sapphire-Light]

Good luck on finding a pup

The english cockers I have met are very lazy, almost at the levels of basset hounds but all the ones I have met are all BYB.

Poodles sounds like a good idea for that work, Pompadour loves to run and bounce, but since he is a toy he gets tired fast, toys appear to be more aware of how they fragile they are and don't like to play too rough.

He has low energy and then he has the runny playfull moments, for what I read in a poodle forum, minis are more active.

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by Sapphire-Light

Good luck on finding a pup

The english cockers I have met are very lazy, almost at the levels of basset hounds but all the ones I have met are all BYB.

I get the impression there are more English Cocker breeders who are concerned with producing dogs for more than just conformation. I could be wrong but I don't think I've ever met a bad English Cocker - they are all good natured. Not sure what you mean by lazy? Some of my dogs are lazy when I'm not doing anything with them. I doubt you'll find many Cockers of either sort out there who have the speed and drive of a BC but there's certainly dogs of both who do well in agility.

Some English Cockers:

This one is a 3rd generation MACH - not too bad!
MACH SPEEDY(8-13).mp4 - YouTube

And a MACH4
MACH SPEEDY(8-13).mp4 - YouTube

This is a nice run at the Invitational:
birdieinv2009r1.MP4 - YouTube

Originally Posted by Sapphire-Light

Poodles sounds like a good idea for that work, Pompadour loves to run and bounce, but since he is a toy he gets tired fast, toys appear to be more aware of how they fragile they are and don't like to play too rough.

He has low energy and then he has the runny playfull moments, for what I read in a poodle forum, minis are more active.

Little Poodles can do well too

Abby the 8" Toy Poodle Does Agility Jan. 1& 2, 2011 - YouTube

Phoebe 5 yps! Colonial Sheltie Club, Rhode Island July 2011 - YouTube

And this reminds me...a good place to ask about breeders of these breeds is probably the Mighty Mites forum. I know for sure there's a few Poodle people and Crested people. It's a bit slow moving but your bound to get some feedback.

[MafiaPrincess]

Mightymites is pretty dead these days. I did ask. I was given info that mini poos dominate in the rankings for poodles.. but somehow the way invitational points are added up, it seems the list is heavy in standards. Also a crestie breeder contacted me..

Looks like it'll be another ACS. Delving into another breed with a lack of knowledge of where to go is hard. I asked on the yahoo group for agility cockers and have 8-10 suggestions, including a few breeders who I've had my eye on who emailed me including Telltale cockers from up above with some of the top ranked cockers.

Unfortunately, I think people could find youtube videos backing up any breed's drive in agility.. but it doesn't make it the norm. I've seen some good and bad of many breeds. I've even seen some non drivey tollers from decent lines..

I want a better competitor though.. and want to be really really picky this time though there are no guarantees. I have to graduate to be able to seriously commit though.

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by MafiaPrincess

Unfortunately, I think people could find youtube videos backing up any breed's drive in agility.. but it doesn't make it the norm. I've seen some good and bad of many breeds. I've even seen some non drivey tollers from decent lines.

I didn't think those dogs showed any special degree of drive, just that they were trainable for agility, successful and having fun. There are dogs of most breeds doing agility and within every breed there are varying degrees of drive and trainability for dog sports. My post was mostly at the implication that English Cockers were too lazy for agility and Toy Poodles too fragile. Your best bet for a performance dog is to pick a breed and puppy you like, train it to the best of your ability, have reasonable expectations and...have fun!

"You can’t buy good agility dog. But you can train it. Of course, you can’t win WC with a Samoyed. But if winning WC is your goal, you probably won’t win it anyway." Silvia Trkman

[Dekka]

Depends on what your definition of a good agility dog is... Maf already has a smokin fast reliable dog (Cider).. you can't train that sort of drive. You can help develop it, but you can't make it if its not there...

AAC courses are technical and fast. I know many 'good' agility dogs who don't make time often once they hit masters.

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by Dekka

Depends on what your definition of a good agility dog is... Maf already has a smokin fast reliable dog (Cider).. you can't train that sort of drive. You can help develop it, but you can't make it if its not there...

AAC courses are technical and fast. I know many 'good' agility dogs who don't make time often once they hit masters.

I have known people with some pretty outstanding, competitive dogs who would argue with that. I don't think you can buy a "smokin' fast reliable dog" necessarily but a lot of people sure do try. You can buy a puppy with potential but that's never a guarantee. And plenty of people have stuck with dogs who most would have considered "wash outs" to develop an truly awesome performance dog.

[Dekka]

Well we will have to agree to disagree. I think you can buy or breed fast dogs. This is the point of breeding programs after all. (If you are breeding for any particular talent...) Yes some dogs can be trained to be faster.. but its usually a non confident dog finding confidence. Some dogs just dont' care to run their legs off.

If you buy from a breeder that consistently produces excellent high drive dogs chances are you will be buying a smokin fast dog. (reliable depends on training, but also on genetics) No guarantees but a much better chance than someone who just buys a pretty dog and hopes for the best.

[AdrianneIsabel]

We bought a smokin fast reliable dog. ;-)

Mafia, I have no real help in those breeds but wish you the best of luck!

[MafiaPrincess]

Originally Posted by Aleron

I didn't think those dogs showed any special degree of drive, just that they were trainable for agility, successful and having fun. There are dogs of most breeds doing agility and within every breed there are varying degrees of drive and trainability for dog sports.

train it to the best of your ability, have reasonable expectations and...have fun!

I have a competitive dog. We are 4 Qs to an ATChC. Once you have that level of success, I can't say having less is as much fun. Why? Because I'm there now with Smudge. He is not as fast. We have trained, short fun and sweet.. and while he wants to play, his legs don't move faster.

As Dekka said. AAC is fast. A fixable minor bobble and some days Cider doesn't make time.. Smudge is not not making time. Some days he can, especially jumpers even in masters.. advanced standard.. there's no prayer. I love him, but consistently too slow for time looses it's appeal.

Originally Posted by Dekka

Depends on what your definition of a good agility dog is... Maf already has a smokin fast reliable dog (Cider).. you can't train that sort of drive. You can help develop it, but you can't make it if its not there...

AAC courses are technical and fast. I know many 'good' agility dogs who don't make time often once they hit masters.

Cider came out of the box higher drive, harder to live with. Smudge has drive, but less and less confidence even with work.

Originally Posted by Aleron

I have known people with some pretty outstanding, competitive dogs who would argue with that. I don't think you can buy a "smokin' fast reliable dog" necessarily but a lot of people sure do try. You can buy a puppy with potential but that's never a guarantee. And plenty of people have stuck with dogs who most would have considered "wash outs" to develop an truly awesome performance dog.

I'd say part is your venue of choice. Our (Dekka and mine) venue is fast, and twisty on average. I know there are no guarantees, but ?I plan to stack the deck for success. I love Smudge, he chooses to share my bed nightly and Cider does not. Consistently slow with a lack of drive is not something that likely will blossom into something highly competitive. It may, but the likelihood is low.

Originally Posted by Dekka

Well we will have to agree to disagree. I think you can buy or breed fast dogs. This is the point of breeding programs after all. (If you are breeding for any particular talent...) Yes some dogs can be trained to be faster.. but its usually a non confident dog finding confidence. Some dogs just dont' care to run their legs off.

If you buy from a breeder that consistently produces excellent high drive dogs chances are you will be buying a smokin fast dog. (reliable depends on training, but also on genetics) No guarantees but a much better chance than someone who just buys a pretty dog and hopes for the best.

Having started to look in a different circle of dog people.. there are cocker lines out there breeding successful performance dogs with higher drive. I'd agree there are breeding programs breeding the talent. Sure, you could have a dud... but I want the higher chance of success. I have the pretty dog I thought would be okay. Sadly the deck wasn't stacked well enough for success, so I'm putting in more effort now, not that I won't play with Smudge.. but it's less rewarding.

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

We bought a smokin fast reliable dog. ;-)

Mafia, I have no real help in those breeds but wish you the best of luck!

Thank you. Was the line heavy in smoking fast and reliability? I have a decent cocker list of breeders now. I just wish I'd graduated already and could be making real plans.