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Old 10-08-2011, 07:48 AM
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Default *Like* and thought I'd share :)

Lots of good points, lots to think about.
Long video, but well worth listening to and (hopefully) discussing.

The Heavy Hand Myth - You Don***39;t Need Fear & Pain to Train Dogs. - YouTube
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Old 10-09-2011, 07:09 AM
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**crickets**

Anyone?
Was the video too long? Was it preaching to the choir? Bad link? Is Chaz acting up again?
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Old 10-09-2011, 08:13 AM
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I just finished watching it. I thought it was a very well thought out and produced video. I enjoyed it. Thanks for posting.
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:12 AM
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I like it, all though if I were to give a critique it would be to remove the background music,

It was interesting seeing Dr. Ian Dunbar using timeouts- I used them, I just didn't know that he did.

EDIT: Oh, the "stopped offering behaviors" things is spot on. Cameron would shut down or leave, that isn't "happy, submissive behavior".
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:14 AM
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I won't be able to watch it until Monday
anyone want to recap?
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:35 AM
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Same crap ... different day would be my recap, which is fine. It all works, some of it works better/consistently better than others.

To be clear I didn't see Ian Dunbar use a timeout, although the person editing the video did imply that he did - personally I see timeouts as super ineffective "punishment" because by the time you actually get the dog to the crate, kennel, leash, or whatever it's long forgotten what the problem was. Are we educating the dog or giving the human being involved a sanity break?
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat09Tails View Post
Same crap ... different day
"Crap" is a relative term, just ask Bates, he thinks deer crap is manna from heaven
Though I would agree that there is a lot of crap out there masquerading as dog training.

I don't use time outs either, find them totally ineffective with my dogs. But that doesn't mean that my only other choice is pain or intimidation. Besides, the video was not about using time-outs or not, that was like the first 30 seconds.
The video had different folks in the dog world discussing how to effectively affect dog behavior without using force, fear or pain. Which I find to be a valid discussion given how many dog trainers still rely almost exclusively on some sort of intimidation or threat of pain to gain compliance.

So back to the time outs - they have to be motivating to the dog. If they're not, its ineffective punishment and you're wasting your time. Take the time to understand your dogs' motivations and work from there.
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Old 10-09-2011, 11:23 AM
Brattina88 Brattina88 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danefied View Post
So back to the time outs - they have to be motivating to the dog. If they're not, its ineffective punishment and you're wasting your time. Take the time to understand your dogs' motivations and work from there.
Agreed - for a dog who loves nothing more than to be around his people, time outs are very effective and sort of like a 'reality check' for some dogs. But for others, like you said, totally uneffective.

To me its just about the same as when a behavior you don't like = the human leaving the room and shutting the dog in. Or jumping = back turned and zero attention. When paired with teaching the dog a more appropraite behavior in its place (like sitting for attention), it's completely effective - IMO
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Old 10-09-2011, 11:46 AM
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Donaldson (paraphrased):
Quote:
It is very normal to have to motivate dogs. So the question then becomes, do you want to do it with force or do you want to do it with rewards. I think that's a very valid discussion that we could be having, what I think keeps this discussion from becoming clear is that those who often motivate with force are not owning it, they're not saying that they're motivating with force, they're cloaking it in euphemisms which really retards any discussion of how shall we motivate dogs.
I am currently motivating my dogs with rewards. My concern, when I first began adopting this type of training was that my dogs would not be as "sharp" or as reliable without an "or else". Over time, I have come to realize that not only were my concerns unfounded, but that I can create *more* reliability using a reward that is meaningful to the dog than an equally meaningful punishment.

When I teach Bates heel by essentially saying "in this position and you will be rewarded" it creates a much different behavior than telling him "outside of this position you will be corrected" It seems like you're telling the dog the dog the same thing, but the behavior is much more reliable when paired with a properly timed reward.
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by developing our powers of empathy and observation,
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  #10  
Old 10-09-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brattina88 View Post
Agreed - for a dog who loves nothing more than to be around his people, time outs are very effective and sort of like a 'reality check' for some dogs. But for others, like you said, totally uneffective.

To me its just about the same as when a behavior you don't like = the human leaving the room and shutting the dog in. Or jumping = back turned and zero attention. When paired with teaching the dog a more appropraite behavior in its place (like sitting for attention), it's completely effective - IMO
For my old foster in particular it was the best (worst?) thing ever. She was an AmStaff that loved to be with me, and timeouts helped a lot with her.
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