Luna's first puppy class

[MandyPug]

Also as much as you believe you know agility, the trainer will know more. The club you're going to has dogs competing at a national level, not only the trainers' dogs but the students' too. If seriously competing in agility is your goal it's in your best interest to listen to what she has to say and learn from her. Not to mention Luna sounds nervous and shy already from what you've been posting, you need to be boosting her confidence with lots of light, fun, positive and encouraging games and methods if you want to be successful with her. Believe me, i started out like you but when my dog who is naturally shy and cautious shut down with corrections i did my research and read and researched some more and found that methods without physically corrections worked much better (my corrections are removing her reward and ending the game, that's called negative punishment. You're removing something they like when they do something wrong, not adding something they dislike when they do something wrong (positive punishment)). Using corrections (physical and verbal scolding) in agility classes will get you kicked out of most. If you insist on doing it you'll have to get used to being scolded or kicked out because agility is supposed to be fun, light, positive, and happy.

I suggest you read Susan Garrett's blog that i linked you. She's a no-nonsense trainer who is VERY successful without physical and verbal corrections and has written much on the subject. You make a correction in her class, even saying "No!" or "Nuh Uh" and she'll give you a warning... If you collar pop your dog, i've heard you're kicked right out.

[Dekka]

lol the scientist in me is forced to point this out. I am not talking speed of learning, I am talking speed of dog.

Corrections shut down dogs (if they work, if the dog ignores the correction then there is no point, though no supression) So it can give the appearance of faster learning as the dog is slower in its movements so it can be 'caught' doing something right. However it makes a dog hesitant to offer things. This is not a detriment in things like obedience where you don't want the dog to think for itself. But in agility you want a thinking dog, a partner.... Corrections slow the dog's performance.

So you may or may not find your dog learns faster. (though make sure you don't accidentally yell at a dog on course.. you can be kicked of trial grounds for that, at worst or be asked to leave the ring at best)

[Danefied]

Originally Posted by NicoleLJ

She tried to snap at some of the larger dogs so Doug gave a slight correction for that since there was no reason for the snap. He got asked to do no corrections. This trainer does not believe in corrections and is purely positive training. I might try to have a discussion with her on that because we do believe in both corrections and postive reinforcement.

If you know better than the trainer, why bother giving her your money? There are other ways to socialize your dog that don't involve subjecting yourself to a trainer who's methods you don't agree with. I mean, if you're that good of a trainer, why don't you teach puppy classes yourself?

And I have to say, the idea that postive training methods involve "ignoring bad behaviors" is so cliche (and so wrong) that its really like fingernails on a chalkboard to me at this point. I didn't get my feral dane's behavior issues fixed by "ignoring" the fact that he tired to kill anyone near his food.

If you're going to have a discussion with your trainer on how your method of using corrections work better, you might want to educate yourself on positive methods a bit better first.

[Dekka]

Danified, many people think positive = permissive and that you need corrections to have consequences. But there are those that even when they are shown a more effective and less risky way often are hung up on wanting or NEEDING to punish something weaker than themselves.

I am not saying there is no place for corrections, but agility is NOT one of them. Nor is correcting a dog who snaps at another one EVER a good idea. Its a good way to train them to be reactive. Or at the least distrust other dogs and their handler.

[Danefied]

Originally Posted by Dekka

Danified, many people think positive = permissive and that you need corrections to have consequences.

Oh, I know, I'm just sick to death of hearing it, especially with so many dogs and so much evidence to the contrary.

Originally Posted by Dekka

I am not saying there is no place for corrections, but agility is NOT one of them. Nor is correcting a dog who snaps at another one EVER a good idea. Its a good way to train them to be reactive. Or at the least distrust other dogs and their handler.

Agreed 110%, especially about training a dog to be reactive.

[AgilityPup]

Originally Posted by Dekka

Danified, many people think positive = permissive and that you need corrections to have consequences. But there are those that even when they are shown a more effective and less risky way often are hung up on wanting or NEEDING to punish something weaker than themselves.

I am not saying there is no place for corrections, but agility is NOT one of them. Nor is correcting a dog who snaps at another one EVER a good idea. Its a good way to train them to be reactive. Or at the least distrust other dogs and their handler.

I was just sitting here wondering to myself how you can even really correct a dog while doing agility? I mean, the way I look at it is, sure, a dog would jump over something in everyday life. Maybe even walk across a 12 inch wide, 4 foot high board. Heck, even tip a teeter like object. (But hey, when will you see them weave 6-12 24 inch spaced weave poles by their own choice!?) However, they're not likely to do a whole course worth on those things on their own. We're asking them for it, and if they even attempt it, that's good enough for me. I may not throw a party for their attempt, but they are assured that trying is better than not doing at all.

Heck, I don't even use "no" in my agility training. If they do something "wrong" they get a "Whoopsie!" and I goof around with them while taking them back so they can try again. They try again, do it right, and they get a big celebration.

I hope you'll give the puppy classes a chance. Like you've said, it all depends on the dog, and honestly, from what I've read of Luna, I think she'll do well with a positive only program.

[Fran101]

Originally Posted by Zoom

Give the trainer a chance and see how she works before trying to go and change up the class.

This. Like you said, it is her class so why not try her methods?
Even if you trained sheena well using your way, there might be another great way that works and would work well for Luna.
I was also kind of disbeliving of ONLY positive based training at first, but I figured, Why not? I don't LIKE correcting my dog or being mean and there are so many well trained dogs trained this way. So I gave it a try and I am so happy with the results and I'm glad that I did Im happy that training and working with me is such a happy experience for me and my dog

I'm glad to hear Luna had a good puppy class. Those classes are a lot of fun, I've never had a puppy so I've never been to one lol but I've seen them and it looks really fun and great to see all those puppies together

Also, you might wanna try making one big LUNA thread you can just continue to update, it will make the timeline and everything of it all quite a bit easier to read

[Dekka]

Originally Posted by Danefied

Oh, I know, I'm just sick to death of hearing it, especially with so many dogs and so much evidence to the contrary.

I hear the 'but my dog is so special and not like any other dog you have ever trained and NEEDs corrections'. I always wonder why they think its the dog that is too stupid. Why is it always the dog's fault if someone not understanding the basics of the training method fails?

[Fran101]

Oh and for the record, I do kind of do corrections sorta..
Like if Romeo is halfway through eating a chocolate easter bunny, I'm probably going to scream lol

not sure if that counts though.. because its more of an "OMG STOP!" because its bad for him, and not an "WRONG! NO! BAD DOG!"

[NicoleLJ]

I already stated why we are going to the classes. look I didn't post this to turn into another debate. It seems every time I post something with Luna and training it turns into a debate. Yes I am a trainer. No I do not teach classes. Why? Because I have no desire to teach the people. I have seen too many who you give advice to, they ignore it and don't work with their dogs and then blame the trainer and not themselves.

Yes Luna is a nervous dog. I have pointed that out from the very first day I had her. And it was because of how she was raised and not socialized at all. She has progressed in leaps and bounds with my training methods. So I have no desire to change that now with her. I have no desire to confuse her by changing how she is being trained when she is have such positive results with it. We don't want to compete in agility at a serious level. It is something we want to do for fun. And if DOug likes it then he will consider it at a more serious level for later.

Do I know all there is about agility? No. I have never competed in it. But I do know how to train dogs with issues. That is all I did for years. And I am confident in how I do it. We go to the class for socialiaztion. I have not once put down the trainer or her methods. Not once. I have said that it does not work for me and what I prefer. I have said I like her as a person as well and that we want to be a part of her club so we can compete. Just because people believe in different styles of training does not mean they are putting the other person down. I know what works for me and my dogs.

All I wanted to do was post about her class and how she did and her progression. If all my posts about Luna and her training are all going to turn into debates then I just won't post about it any more because I have no interest in debating my style of training or how I choose to train my dogs.