Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog Training Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 04-05-2011, 09:49 PM
acer925's Avatar
acer925 acer925 is offline
Puppy Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 51
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
I had a dog reactive Doberman. He was perfect when he was in class and reactive when on casual leash walks. My take is that in his case (and it could be in your dog's) when in that context, he was in "working" mode. It was more formal to him. (in a dog's translation of formal. lol) And when having a more recreational, random kind of walk, he somehow thought it was a free for all. I don't know. He would do a long down stay, side by side with a bunch of other dogs, keep his eyes straight ahead on me and not pay any attention to them. I'm not sure though, if this sounds like the same thing with your dog.

It could also be like Danefied describes.
Interesting..and how did you get your dog to stop being reactive to other dogs on walks? with the clicker training and positive association like you were talking about?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:30 PM
lizzybeth727's Avatar
lizzybeth727 lizzybeth727 is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 6,403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by acer925 View Post
Can someone tell me why he is good at the trainers place around the dogs, but bad when at the park? I know if I figure that out, thats the ultimate reason for everything hes doing. He will still snap at another dog there if they come close enough, but he could sit/lay down 5 feet away from another dog and be fine.
My chihuahua, Luna, was very dog reactive when I got her at a year old, but she was good in training class and I was still able to use her as a demo dog in the training classes I taught. I think part of it was what Dober said, she was in "work" mode. It could also be that in class we had a very strict "6 Foot Rule," where dogs had to stay 6' apart while in the training area. Since no dogs ever got closer than 6' to her, Luna might have been particularly comfortable there. It might also have been that in class she was usually facing me, where out on our walks she was facing the other dogs.

BTW, I also used clicker training and the methods described in Click to Calm to "fix" her reactivity. It took her about 6 months of nearly daily training before she would calmly tolerate other dogs, and about another 2 years before she started enjoying being around other dogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acer925 View Post
we always go with him there. the only reason I come up with is because he's excited to go to the park/walk so he is more lively which would make him hyper not afraid and defensive, whereas, the trainers is not a good place for him so he is fearful? Sort of like a kid going to the candy store compared to the dentist office. I really dont know..
If a dog is afraid/defensive at training, IMO, the dog shouldn't be subjected to going to training.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-06-2011, 08:19 AM
Danefied's Avatar
Danefied Danefied is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Southeast
Posts: 1,722
Default

Okay, so I'm re reading this thread, and I'm a little confused.
You've been training the dog for 3 months, but you've had him 7 years.
In those previous 7 years, the dog never left the yard, but now that you have moved there is a need to walk him.
For a month of those three months you've been doing what you were told by the trainer from the site you posted.
You've attended two classes at the trainer's location.
Your dog behaves better at the trainer's location than out on a casual walk and you would like to know why.

Please correct me if I'm understanding wrong above.

There are several factors at play here.
The biggest factor is a dog who has lived with you for 7 years under certain rules and expectations, and now you are changing the rules. All dogs have a history with their owners and expectations of behavior whether we consciously teach them any or not.
He has spent his entire life in one yard, and now he has to navigate a walk in the city, which I imagine is overwhelming enough. But add to that that he has no training and doesn't know he can trust you or how to defer to you for guidance. Its like you've thrown him in to the deep end of the swimming pool without teaching him any basic water skills.

Following the water analogy, I'd be really interested to know how he acts (other than compliant) when at the trainer's place. You say he shakes and tucks his tail, does he also drool a lot? Shed a lot? Sniff the ground or hold his head low? Look away from you or the other dogs?
My guess is that with such close proximity of so many dogs, he is actually flooded, he is getting so much stimulus that he basically shuts down and goes in to a sort of mobile catatonic state. So while he's not exhibiting any "problem" behaviors, he's also not learning any coping skills either - as you have experienced as soon as he sees another dog outside of the environment of the training field.

The biggest thing this guy needs to know is that he can trust you. That he can trust you not to put him in a situation he's not ready for, trust you to give him clear directions, and trust you to handle things so that he doesn't have to.

However you decide to teach him commands, it has to be in a way that is clear to him, that allows him to think for himself, and that builds his trust in you.

If you were pinged with a rubber band every time you gave the teacher the wrong answer, while its not really that painful, after enough repetitions, you're going to stop trying to answer and you're not going to trust the teacher very much either are you? (Or if you're of a particular temperament you might be tempted to grab that teacher's $%#&*$% rubber band and do some "pinging" of your own. *whistles*)
But if you got a smile and m&m's every time you got the answer right, you're probably going to keep trying even when the problems get more complex and difficult.

I find this statement on the website you posted very telling:
Quote:
this type of training goes beyond “sit and stay”. A bond begins to form between a person and their dog. Training that does not need a treat or the sound of a bell or clicker or ball to drive your dog to do what you’ve asked of it. The dog will give 150% not sometimes, not half the time, but all of the time solely for that bond. They are more than happy to please us for a simple pat on the head or “good job” or “thank you”.
There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to begin.
a) ALL training that's worth anything goes beyond "sit and stay". ALL training that's worth anything creates a dog/handler bond.
b) the bolded part is total baloney and betrays a lack of knowledge of motivation in dogs (or people for that matter). Jean Donaldson explains it best in "The Culture Clash". That basically dogs work for two reasons, to gain something good or avoid something bad.
I don't understand how someone can train a dog with leash corrections and then say the dog is motivated to please you without also acknowledging that the dog is motivated to AVOID the leash correction. Dogs are no dummies and quickly learn that happy face on owner = no corrections.
Seeing as dog training is so dependent on understanding what motivates each individual dog, I'd be very leery of any trainer that had such a poor concept of motivation.
__________________
"We become better trainers by refusing to swallow uncritically what is tossed to us as truth,
by developing our powers of empathy and observation,
and by searching for better ways to teach and educate the dogs we love."
~Suzanne Clothier
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-06-2011, 08:50 AM
milos_mommy's Avatar
milos_mommy milos_mommy is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,564
Default

Wanted to chime in that the methods used to train k9 police dogs really don't carry over very well into real-life situations....that's why police dogs are ALWAYS on leash and most are not allowed to interact with the general public. They are trained using very specific methods, situations, etc. and are generally not very well behaved around other people/dogs/situations.

I would look for a trainer who uses positive reinforcement methods. What you're describing about having the dog walk through other dogs on boxes sounds like it's so over-stimulating they're just looking to get the dog to "shut down" and stop reacting, which will work in that specific instance, but not for day-to-day life.
__________________
"My favorite color is green, green like newly cut grass. When it comes to green with envy, though, you can stick it up your @ss!" ~ Grammy



http://www.adorablebeasts.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-06-2011, 12:09 PM
Doberluv's Avatar
Doberluv Doberluv is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: western Wa
Posts: 21,912
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by acer925 View Post
Interesting..and how did you get your dog to stop being reactive to other dogs on walks? with the clicker training and positive association like you were talking about?
Yes, exactly. I refered to the book, Click To Calm, by Emma Parsons to make sure I wasn't missing any important tips. I used many of her ideas. My dog didn't completely stop being reactive. He improved and settled down some. He wasn't cowering around other dogs. On the contrary, he was lunging at the end of the leash, snarling and embarrassing the heck out of me. LOL.

I agree with Lizzybeth that if your dog is highly stressed and fearful in training class, I'd put that off. You'd do better to work out the training on your own, with some training tips etc. There's no learning if your dog is highly anxious and stressed and it's not even physically good for a dog to be in that state chronically.
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-06-2011, 12:23 PM
Doberluv's Avatar
Doberluv Doberluv is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: western Wa
Posts: 21,912
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danefied View Post
Okay, so I'm re reading this thread, and I'm a little confused.
You've been training the dog for 3 months, but you've had him 7 years.
In those previous 7 years, the dog never left the yard, but now that you have moved there is a need to walk him.
For a month of those three months you've been doing what you were told by the trainer from the site you posted.
You've attended two classes at the trainer's location.
Your dog behaves better at the trainer's location than out on a casual walk and you would like to know why.

Please correct me if I'm understanding wrong above.

There are several factors at play here.
The biggest factor is a dog who has lived with you for 7 years under certain rules and expectations, and now you are changing the rules. All dogs have a history with their owners and expectations of behavior whether we consciously teach them any or not.
He has spent his entire life in one yard, and now he has to navigate a walk in the city, which I imagine is overwhelming enough. But add to that that he has no training and doesn't know he can trust you or how to defer to you for guidance. Its like you've thrown him in to the deep end of the swimming pool without teaching him any basic water skills.

Following the water analogy, I'd be really interested to know how he acts (other than compliant) when at the trainer's place. You say he shakes and tucks his tail, does he also drool a lot? Shed a lot? Sniff the ground or hold his head low? Look away from you or the other dogs?
My guess is that with such close proximity of so many dogs, he is actually flooded, he is getting so much stimulus that he basically shuts down and goes in to a sort of mobile catatonic state. So while he's not exhibiting any "problem" behaviors, he's also not learning any coping skills either - as you have experienced as soon as he sees another dog outside of the environment of the training field.

The biggest thing this guy needs to know is that he can trust you. That he can trust you not to put him in a situation he's not ready for, trust you to give him clear directions, and trust you to handle things so that he doesn't have to.

However you decide to teach him commands, it has to be in a way that is clear to him, that allows him to think for himself, and that builds his trust in you.

If you were pinged with a rubber band every time you gave the teacher the wrong answer, while its not really that painful, after enough repetitions, you're going to stop trying to answer and you're not going to trust the teacher very much either are you? (Or if you're of a particular temperament you might be tempted to grab that teacher's $%#&*$% rubber band and do some "pinging" of your own. *whistles*)
But if you got a smile and m&m's every time you got the answer right, you're probably going to keep trying even when the problems get more complex and difficult.

I find this statement on the website you posted very telling:

There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to begin.
a) ALL training that's worth anything goes beyond "sit and stay". ALL training that's worth anything creates a dog/handler bond.
b) the bolded part is total baloney and betrays a lack of knowledge of motivation in dogs (or people for that matter). Jean Donaldson explains it best in "The Culture Clash". That basically dogs work for two reasons, to gain something good or avoid something bad.
I don't understand how someone can train a dog with leash corrections and then say the dog is motivated to please you without also acknowledging that the dog is motivated to AVOID the leash correction. Dogs are no dummies and quickly learn that happy face on owner = no corrections.
Seeing as dog training is so dependent on understanding what motivates each individual dog, I'd be very leery of any trainer that had such a poor concept of motivation.
This^^^

You need to lose this person who calls him/herself a "trainer." The whole thing is just wreaking amatuer with no education in canine behavior.
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-06-2011, 02:20 PM
acer925's Avatar
acer925 acer925 is offline
Puppy Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 51
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danefied View Post
Okay, so I'm re reading this thread, and I'm a little confused.
You've been training the dog for 3 months, but you've had him 7 years.
In those previous 7 years, the dog never left the yard, but now that you have moved there is a need to walk him.
For a month of those three months you've been doing what you were told by the trainer from the site you posted.
You've attended two classes at the trainer's location.
Your dog behaves better at the trainer's location than out on a casual walk and you would like to know why.

Please correct me if I'm understanding wrong above.

There are several factors at play here.
The biggest factor is a dog who has lived with you for 7 years under certain rules and expectations, and now you are changing the rules. All dogs have a history with their owners and expectations of behavior whether we consciously teach them any or not.
He has spent his entire life in one yard, and now he has to navigate a walk in the city, which I imagine is overwhelming enough. But add to that that he has no training and doesn't know he can trust you or how to defer to you for guidance. Its like you've thrown him in to the deep end of the swimming pool without teaching him any basic water skills.

Following the water analogy, I'd be really interested to know how he acts (other than compliant) when at the trainer's place. You say he shakes and tucks his tail, does he also drool a lot? Shed a lot? Sniff the ground or hold his head low? Look away from you or the other dogs?
My guess is that with such close proximity of so many dogs, he is actually flooded, he is getting so much stimulus that he basically shuts down and goes in to a sort of mobile catatonic state. So while he's not exhibiting any "problem" behaviors, he's also not learning any coping skills either - as you have experienced as soon as he sees another dog outside of the environment of the training field.

The biggest thing this guy needs to know is that he can trust you. That he can trust you not to put him in a situation he's not ready for, trust you to give him clear directions, and trust you to handle things so that he doesn't have to.

However you decide to teach him commands, it has to be in a way that is clear to him, that allows him to think for himself, and that builds his trust in you.

If you were pinged with a rubber band every time you gave the teacher the wrong answer, while its not really that painful, after enough repetitions, you're going to stop trying to answer and you're not going to trust the teacher very much either are you? (Or if you're of a particular temperament you might be tempted to grab that teacher's $%#&*$% rubber band and do some "pinging" of your own. *whistles*)
But if you got a smile and m&m's every time you got the answer right, you're probably going to keep trying even when the problems get more complex and difficult.

I find this statement on the website you posted very telling:

There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to begin.
a) ALL training that's worth anything goes beyond "sit and stay". ALL training that's worth anything creates a dog/handler bond.
b) the bolded part is total baloney and betrays a lack of knowledge of motivation in dogs (or people for that matter). Jean Donaldson explains it best in "The Culture Clash". That basically dogs work for two reasons, to gain something good or avoid something bad.
I don't understand how someone can train a dog with leash corrections and then say the dog is motivated to please you without also acknowledging that the dog is motivated to AVOID the leash correction. Dogs are no dummies and quickly learn that happy face on owner = no corrections.
Seeing as dog training is so dependent on understanding what motivates each individual dog, I'd be very leery of any trainer that had such a poor concept of motivation.
You are correct about everything on his background. He only got the shakes one time at the trainer's, and stuck to my leg. The last time we went, he didnt get the shakes at all, he doesn't drool at all either..or shed. His tail is not always tucked either, sometimes its wagging slowly while there. Sometimes its just stiff. And his head is not down much, for the most part he just has wandering eyes. In the beginning, he pulls towards the door a lot to leave. He did get too focused on other dogs near him a few times, got engaged in a couple staring contests and I had to snap him out of it. The first class the trainer just talked for 75% of the time telling us procedures and what we will be doing. During that time, all the dogs/owners were lined up against a wall next to each other (about 5 ft away). But what we found funny during this time was that he wanted to lay down. He didnt want to sit. While he was laying down he was very calm..even when directly looking at the dog next to him. A few times the germ.shep. pup to the other side of us got to close and my dog tried snapping at him.(because the other owner didnt keep his dog close enough to him). He doesnt look away from us, if we say his name, he will look directly at us while there. Otherwise he;s just looking around..or at the door. I dont think its a matter of how many dogs are in the room, b/c one time we went there was only one other dog there at first and he was exactly the same as when the room has 10 dogs. And the first lesson he had, they brought 1 dog out, one at a time and he wasnt aggresive at all. The first class he did they taught us some basic commands then he brought out his rottweiler who is very nice and trained well, and my dog did not bark once or anything. He made them pass by eachother a few times on leash walking and then had them sit next to each other, my dog turned his back..and the trainer said that was good b/c dogs either fight or flight and that means he is not really an aggresive dog. Then he had the rotti lay down on top of a big long table and had my dog walk over the top of her, there was a little suttle growling by my dog but I think he did it. Then they brought out a big german shep. very nice and trained and he did well with walking by it and not doing anything. But then he brought out a dog and he said she is still a work in progress and she used to be aggresive. Well this little germ.shep. caused a riot. Was ok at first, but then while walking her, the big nice shepherd, and my dog all like in a circle, the little one started going nuts and then caused the other 2 to go nuts as well. We just walked our dog away from it. He said he wanted to see what we would do, and he said we did the right thing. I thought that was really not neccesary. I agree with you, I dont think he trains the best way. Will it work? I really dont know. It makes more sense to me that a dog would respond a lot better to motivating them with positive reinforcement. I have a question for you, what if my dog does get engaged in barking at another dog while at the park..what do I do? Im going to try and prevent it from happening while still working with him but some dogs are off leash and get too close for him.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-06-2011, 02:35 PM
Danefied's Avatar
Danefied Danefied is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Southeast
Posts: 1,722
Default

Just to give you a different perspective, this is what a reactive dog class can look like. The dogs outside the fence are learning to relax around another dog who is being active (running, playing, bouncing), and the black dog is learning to focus on me even though there are other dogs around and even when I stop doing anything interesting. Its a default "what's next mom?" type attitude, and its not that hard to build.

YouTube - Focus and control class
__________________
"We become better trainers by refusing to swallow uncritically what is tossed to us as truth,
by developing our powers of empathy and observation,
and by searching for better ways to teach and educate the dogs we love."
~Suzanne Clothier
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-06-2011, 02:36 PM
acer925's Avatar
acer925 acer925 is offline
Puppy Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 51
Default

I wasnt planning on taking him out of the class but now Im afraid it might be detrimental to his learning. I dont think he is overly stressed out there, no panting or toungue hanging out (yet). So im not sure if its ok to keep him there or not. See we tried the intermediate class but he was too stressed out by what they wanted from him in that class, so they put us in the beginners and he seems to not be stressed out/overwhelmed yet. do you guys think if I do the positive reinforcement and clicker training at home and keep him in the beginner class it will be bad for him?
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-06-2011, 04:09 PM
Doberluv's Avatar
Doberluv Doberluv is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: western Wa
Posts: 21,912
Default

Most of the point of training (for me anyhow) is to have fun, my dog and me. If it's stressful at all, there's no point. Compulsive, forceful, punishing type training is NOT fun for a dog and most certainly shouldn't be for humans. But a lot of people have bought into the dominance panacea b.s. and think there isn't any other way. Positive reinforcement type training, when done correctly should not create stress in the dog and should in fact, be like a game. IMO dogs learn better when they're thoroughly enjoying themselves and it creates a much better bond between owner and dog. If the other dogs are stressing him out at all, I'd keep him away from them except for a desensatizing program that you can learn about in the books mentioned. Or, if you have any friends with a couple dogs that he seems to like to play with, that would be great. Otherwise, a bunch of unknown dogs (to him) aren't necessary until he gets so he is comfortable. You can teach him his basic obedience without a class...you can get tips here or get a good book that we can recommend or some websites. You can Google Clicker Solutions for some good tips. The main point of obedience classes for me is the socialization aspect and for the dog to learn how to do things around other dogs/distractions. But you can add those things in later....gradually, so there's little stress on you both. Or not. if he's always been in his own yard and it's too difficult to get him okay with too many dogs, let him live his life without all that. There's not a big need for him to hang out with tons of dogs is there?
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:52 PM.


©1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site