Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > The Breeding Ground


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 03-17-2011, 11:51 PM
Kat09Tails's Avatar
Kat09Tails Kat09Tails is offline
*Now with Snark*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Upper Left hand corner, USA
Posts: 3,337
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michiyo-Fir View Post
I don't agree.

I think eating well should be part of being healthy just like OFA tests and CERF tests. Would you breed a dog that came back OFA borderline for hips just because you couldn't tell at 8 weeks old and waited and waited and waited to see if they had a correct temperament, bite, coat, head, etc. etc?
Well first off I think maybe seven papillons in the history of the breed have been hip ofaed. It's hard.... really hard to find papillon breeders who even have chic numbers for their dogs for the three requirements that are around (cerf, patellas, cardiac). Something like 800 chic numbers have ever been issued and of those less than 400 are current.

Second if the dog is that difficult to eat and never gets in condition then no, of course I wouldn't breed that dog. I just don't see anything proven where eating is genetic. Two of my dogs are fussy eaters (which do eventually eat) and two are oinkers who are lean. Funny enough both the boys who I neutered for what I consider breed faults are my two fussy ones.

It is hard ~ really hard ~ to find a breeder to work with you on full registration who doesn't want full control of your day to day plans. It is near impossible if you buy a bitch. I know several stud owners who demand half the litter (their pick) plus cash for a stud fee. This of course can be a little rattling if the litter is 3 or less.

It's frustrating to try to do this right with toy dogs. Even more so if you aren't great at playing the politics of it.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-18-2011, 12:06 AM
Michiyo-Fir Michiyo-Fir is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,350
Default

I'm just using the OFA rating as an example but I mean with any health test or temperament test, you probably wouldn't breed the dogs that barely passed by a hair.

Of course, it also depends on the rest of the dog, how great their type, temperament, structure, etc. is. If I had to breed a poor eater, I would find a stud that eats well at least.

I know it's not proven to be genetic yet but one can always try. I think by determining if the dogs are eating well can only be known through watching the dog. Since there isn't a health test or exam yet to determine how good the appetite of a dog is, one can only start from there.

I mean some people bribe their dogs every day with different things like cheese, meat, snacks, I've even heard of bacon drippings added to dog food to make the dog like. If that's the only way that this particular dog can be kept at a good weight and good appetite, I would reconsider breeding.

Have you tried to talk to the Canadian breeders? The few that I'm close with all sell their bitches on full registration without co-ownership. They will get first pick out of the first one or two litters though if the female is ever bred. Other than that I don't think it's too bad. If the stud owners want first pick of the litter, you can do the same with your stud dogs to hopefully get some breeding quality bitch puppies I guess.

I almost bought a female puppy on full registration before getting Nia. Their requirements needed me to show the girl though and since I had no showing experience and couldn't justify paying $2500 for a dog that was just going to be a pet for me, I passed on her. What happened was I picked a pup based on the 4 that was in the litter and the one I picked was the breeder's pick as well. She was willing to sell her to me and keep one of the other pups (because it was a very very nice litter) provided I show her to her Can Ch.

She turned out quite nicely if I may say so myself. finished her Ch easily.

Here she is




I sometimes still wonder what would've happened if I had gotten her instead.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-18-2011, 12:22 AM
Kat09Tails's Avatar
Kat09Tails Kat09Tails is offline
*Now with Snark*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Upper Left hand corner, USA
Posts: 3,337
Default

I've found a breeder I'd like to get a dog from in east Canada, one in the UK, and one in Austria. I've honestly given up on most US breeders except for one in Texas, one in Oklahoma, and one in Florida. I have also given up health testing as a requirement to work with simply because no one for the most part does it. *sigh* Seriously... 800 chic numbers in the history of the breed.

It's not that I don't play well with the breeders up here who do have some very nice dogs, I just don't show as often as they require, I allow my dogs to be house dogs first and foremost, and won't commit to a contract that imo is insane. I also refuse to spit upon those who choose to show UKC instead of dealing with the AKC BS that is the show ring up here. A fair number require sending a dog out with a professional handler and require the dog to show only in certain states so they aren't competing against their own stock. To those people I will scrap my whole dog hobby before I let someone control my life like that.

Anyway I digress... I'm pretty small scale on the great papillon breeder circuit. I have bred one litter two years ago and would like to breed another this year if I can justify it.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-18-2011, 12:53 AM
Romy's Avatar
Romy Romy is offline
Taxiderpy
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 9,954
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat09Tails View Post
It's not that I don't play well with the breeders up here who do have some very nice dogs, I just don't show as often as they require, I allow my dogs to be house dogs first and foremost, and won't commit to a contract that imo is insane. I also refuse to spit upon those who choose to show UKC instead of dealing with the AKC BS that is the show ring up here. A fair number require sending a dog out with a professional handler and require the dog to show only in certain states so they aren't competing against their own stock. To those people I will scrap my whole dog hobby before I let someone control my life like that.
Yikes, that's insane. You'd think it'd reflect well on their kennel if a dog they bred won, regardless of which dog it was. That's just...wow. Glad my mentor isn't that crazy. She let me have the pick bitch of her litter on a co-ownership.

Food stuff is a big issue though. I know a lot of borzoi breeders try to breed "easy keepers". Kaia is an easy keeper. She eats fine and keeps a healthy weight on without supplemental feeding. Strider was always harder to keep weight on, though he ate like a horse. Now he's finally filling out, though he appears to be one of those really late maturing dogs. His ribs finally sprang last month and he's 3 and a half, plus he gained two inches in height since November. I thought he was done growing over a year ago.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-18-2011, 12:57 AM
Michiyo-Fir Michiyo-Fir is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,350
Default

I'm not all that worried about dogs that eat a lot but don't keep weight on. I'm mostly worried about the ones that don't even eat.

I know a lot of breeds' male intact puppies just not keeping any weight on even though they eat bucketfuls of food. At least you know food is going in.

I used to know someone's little male (about 30-35 lbs) eating 3 lbs of meat a day and still was as thin as you could ever imagine even though the vet cleared him on his health. He was a teenager though and growing. He ended up about 40 lbs and now at 5 years old still eats 2-2.5 lbs of meat a day.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-18-2011, 01:03 AM
Laurelin's Avatar
Laurelin Laurelin is offline
I'm All Ears
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 29,211
Default

It's honestly not something that's even really on my radar to be honest. I've never had one that would starve themselves routinely. I have three that don't eat every meal. They may even skip a day but they do eat and eat enough to keep themselves healthy. The only time we ever had a REAL problem was when Summer had had those surgeries back to back then ended up in the E-vet then went off food and water for 3 days. Then we had hypoglycemic issues but other than that she's fine. She had a hard time switching to raw because she's finicky but if kept on her usual food, she's fine even if she picks at it or doesn't even touch it every meal.

There's benefits to having 'easy keepers' too. I see some breeds where almost every individual is overweight. I'd rather have dogs tend naturally towards the lean side.
__________________
Mia CGC - (5 year old papillon)
Summer TG3 TBAD - (10 year old papillon)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-18-2011, 01:09 AM
Laurelin's Avatar
Laurelin Laurelin is offline
I'm All Ears
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 29,211
Default

I'm not sure it is genetic. Mias dam is a dog that doesn't eat much from what I hear and keeps herself at a lean weight. Her sire inhales food and would be a balloon if you let him.

Mia is in between. She eats but most the time never finishes what I give her. She stays pretty consistently at a nice weight too.

Beau is the only one that will gorge himself and honestly it's a LOT harder for me to deal with than the dogs that eat more sporadically. My shelties were the same way too in that if you gave it to them, it was gone (and I notice shelties are a breed very very prone to obesity). I actually like the fact that if I put down a big huge amount of food in front of Nard, Rose, Summer and Mia daily I wouldn't ever have to worry about them becoming obese because they all wouldn't eat if they weren't hungry. I've never had dogs that just seem to naturally keep a healthy slim weight like the paps do.

I also see a LOT of people pander to their small dogs too. It's easy to make a finicky eater even worse if you keep 'spicing up' their food.
__________________
Mia CGC - (5 year old papillon)
Summer TG3 TBAD - (10 year old papillon)
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-18-2011, 01:10 AM
Michiyo-Fir Michiyo-Fir is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,350
Default

Nia during her growing stages always kept herself underweight. By quite a lot according to the vet. I'm not sure if the vet's standards were a bit on the fatter side though. Even when she's filled out and to me was at a good weight, the vet still thought she was a bit underweight. Not even thin, actually underweight.

But like I said, she was starving herself so much that the vet almost made me go home without getting her spayed because he thought she was so thin.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-18-2011, 01:14 AM
Laurelin's Avatar
Laurelin Laurelin is offline
I'm All Ears
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 29,211
Default

When I go to the vets here every dog I see is obese. Not just overweight but obese... In fact the last time I was at the vet they didn't even mention that Beau had put on weight at all let alone mention he was fat. Toy breeds I see around are generally the worst as far as being in shape goes. I saw a chihuahua the other day that looked like a sausage or an overgrown tick with a tiny head an massive body. But I can't think of the time I've seen a really fit looking toy dog out and about.

Nard is skinny. He's really bony, his hips stick out and his ribs do too, but it's not an unhealthy weight. He is very athletic and has muscular legs, etc. Paps are thinner built than most dog breeds by quite a bit. It's very much normal for young papillons to be almost underweight. Bernard is almost 3 and still very thin. It doesn't bother me near as much as the fact that Beau is too fat.
__________________
Mia CGC - (5 year old papillon)
Summer TG3 TBAD - (10 year old papillon)
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-18-2011, 01:15 AM
Michiyo-Fir Michiyo-Fir is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,350
Default

It's also a big concern for me because when I want to travel or before her surgeries, she won't eat which means she'll go hungry for quite a bit longer than the dogs that ate their meal at the designated time before a flight or surgery.

Edit: It could be because I'm so used to dogs that eat when food is placed in front of them and finishes in a few seconds.

I've never believed in free feeding at all until I got Nia. I like putting down food twice a day at the same time and have it cleaned out. Truffles is like that and so is Pop. However, if you overfeed Pop, he won't eat more than when he's full. But he'll eat immediately and quickly when food is given.

Truffles will eat herself to death if you let her.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:51 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site