Acceptable Breeding Practice

[AdrianneIsabel]

I think far too many idealize the world of the apbt prior to the 1970s but that is another thread. In short, association with the thread, the breeding for mass production has caused a great downfall of the breed. Pulling back on litters, rethinking to whom dogs go, and reworking our health testings and sporting/working venues would be a mild start, but in reality I am a fatalist.

I do hope no other breeds follow in their foot steps, really. I wish the best for smaller breed pools and hope they remain safer with better health and stronger, more intelligent, and responsible owners be it pet, sport or work oriented.

It really is a different world living in a mass media breed vs a kennel journal breed and I'm sure that effects the difference of opinions on the topic at hand.

[UniquityBelgians]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

I was checking your website (this is OT slightly) and you have very nice dogs! You also seem to have very small litters as well? From your stats page? Is that common in your line or just your female?

I assume these small litters would sway the reasoning for some answers as well, a vast difference from the 9-12 puppy litters common in many medium size dogs.

Thank you! Yes she does have small litters. She and her littermates were very ill as puppies. They contracted parvo, and the vet thought it'd be a good idea to vaccinate them for parvo when they already HAD it! Dumb vet. My vet treated them, and said it was the worst case of parvo she'd ever seen. They had so many distemper symptoms she thought they had a combination of both viruses. The pups had a very high fever for several weeks. Two of them died, and Visa was left with fertility issues. I did some research when she has her singleton puppy, and found that severe cases of parvo have been linked to fertility issues and infertility. The repro vet I consulted with opened her up and looked at her uterus, and said it was very healthy, and she believes it was the illness and high fever that has caused the issues. She recommended back-to-back breedings only because it would keep her uterus in shape, thus avoiding whelping problems and c-sections. We haven't had any problems since then!

We'll have an even better idea of that when her daughters are bred. Of the 8 puppies from the litters I've had with her, 6 are in breeding homes. 3 of those are females who'll be bred. We do see some fertility issues in some lines, but mostly it's linked to using coat formulas made from organic arsenic.

[PatienceFlame]

Why would anyone want to mass produce litters? quality over quantity
the quality of each well thought out and compatable lines should surpass the QUANTITY MILLER idea unless you just want to dish more shelter dogs out and not give a rats ass where they go just for a few bucks (Which imo 5-6litters is too many off ONE bitch and does nothing for that breeders breed of choice and will do more damage then good in the long run). A breeder should be focused on the temperment, drive and working ability with good conformation to beable to perform the task given to it and IMO ONLY if the breeding pair out produced itself should there be a repeat breeding and ONLY if there were a certain bloodline to preserve should a dog 7yrs or older be bred and only by someone with years of experiance.

[Michiyo-Fir]

I do agree wth quality over quantity.

The breeder I'm talking about does have 25 yrs of experience. Even breeding 5 litters a year, the waitinglist is 6 months to a year and they're really careful in where there dogs go and I'm sure their dogs havent ended up in shelters.

However, just because other people want puppies from your blood lines, does that justify so many puppies?

[Kat09Tails]

Originally Posted by Michiyo-Fir

However, just because other people want puppies from your blood lines, does that justify so many puppies?

Great question. It recently came up when discussing a few VERY popular overseas kennels and a couple very popular kennels stateside in papillons. My thought on is so long as the dogs being used are not over represented in the genepool (like a certain male papillon who has at least a hundred full registration descendants or a certain well used pom stud who has over 2500 offspring) and the quality of those offspring maintained and delegated to quality homes both as breeding animals and pets have at... with my blessing because that breeder is undertaking a far more difficult task than I would care to tackle.

It was HARD finding a quality home for the one puppy I had available two years ago. I think I went through ten No - ways to find one that was an enthusiastic yes!. I can't imagine having to do that for litter upon litter and not letting my standards slip.

Although now I have a small line for my next litter, I'm not sure that I'm ready for another dog so I'm dragging my feet about it. For me, breeding with intent to retain is what ensuring quality is about because it makes health a worry worth testing about, it makes balance of temperament worth checking into, it makes breeding a little less about titles and more about looking at the dog in front of you.

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

Yes, these breeds have a smaller gene pool but really, why should it expand as long as it is healthfully maintained? To force expansion without a demand of suitable homes only runs the risk of said breed to falter in standard join the hundreds of others found regularly in ill health and shelters.

A certain number of dogs is needed to maintain any breed's gene pool. Breeds are much more likely to have issues maintaining proper temperament and good overall health when their gene pools become too small. It is not about "expanding", it's about the ever decreasing numbers in some breeds and about maintaining a healthy breeding population in all breeds. Most of the 400 or so breeds in the world are rarely or never found in shelters in the US.

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

You'll never achieve the goal of preservation of the proper dog if you're breeding for numbers alone.

Who said otherwise?

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

Look at the most popular breeds today, sure they have numbers but unfortunately the large majority of them are complete wrecks.

Yep there is a shortage of quality dogs. Like I said earlier: For purebred dogs to continue, we need breeders breeding quality dogs.

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

Should I in theory breed my malinois now, prior to their OFA scores, prior to their breed exam in their sch1, prior to their provocation of lack of unstable behaviors and without examination of compatibility to one anothers pedigree and pros and cons?

Again who said this?

[JennSLK]

Well Solo will be bred just after her 2nd birthday (assuming health testing passed)

So lets say, she has her puppies at 2.5yrs old. Great litter.
I breed her again and she has puppies at 3.5yrs old. Littler #1 still looks great, and litter #2 is nice too. Consult repo vet, do back to back. Litter #3 at 4 years old, nice litter. Wait a year. Litter #4 at 5yrs old. Again nice litter. Puppies from other litters looking great. Consult repo vet again, get the go ahead. Wait a season. Litter #5 at 6 years old. Thats 5 litters of nice puppies. Is that bad? I dont think so. Assuming I dont have any issues finding homes and the litters are 4-5 puppies each.


Would I breed Solo at 7 or 8? Yes, if she was healthy, had nice puppies in the past and the vet said it would be OK.

Honestly I wouldnt do the # of litters I said above. To expensive and personaly I wouldnt have time. Also by the time she has litter #3 or #4 litter #1 would be old enough to breed, so if I chose to breed her daughter I would have to figgure that in too and I PERSONALY dont have the resorses for soemthing like that

[UniquityBelgians]

Originally Posted by Michiyo-Fir

However, just because other people want puppies from your blood lines, does that justify so many puppies?

I find that in most cases, the most popular lines (the most common) are the ones that people seem to want the most. Which doesn't really justify tons of breeding, because they're already popular. When I first got into these lines, it was very frustrating for me. Few breeders were interested in them and I really had to make alot of contacts to find a group of people who still wanted the old lines. People want what is up and coming and being campaigned, and that is where popular stud syndrome comes in, and then where issues arise. Luckily I'm finding more and more breeders being picky about who gets to use their studs.

[UniquityBelgians]

Originally Posted by JennSLK

Well Solo will be bred just after her 2nd birthday (assuming health testing passed)

So lets say, she has her puppies at 2.5yrs old. Great litter.
I breed her again and she has puppies at 3.5yrs old. Littler #1 still looks great, and litter #2 is nice too. Consult repo vet, do back to back. Litter #3 at 4 years old, nice litter. Wait a year. Litter #4 at 5yrs old. Again nice litter. Puppies from other litters looking great. Consult repo vet again, get the go ahead. Wait a season. Litter #5 at 6 years old. Thats 5 litters of nice puppies. Is that bad? I dont think so. Assuming I dont have any issues finding homes and the litters are 4-5 puppies each.

I don't see anything wrong with this. It takes a knowledge of the dog involved, and common sense. By myself having five litters (and producing the amount that a normal dog would have in two normal sized litters), I'm not overpopulating the earth. I'm preserving a dying line.
In the wild, the average is one litter every heat (annual). Obviously there's a point that they stop breeding, but I don't think they have a little clock that tells them to stop breeding when they're 7 because now they're too old. It's different for every dog, and it depends on what the breeder's goals are. Like I'd said before, I think waiting until the bitch is older is better for the breed as a whole. Too many dogs are bred young before their health status is truly known.

[Equinox]

I know in the case of the two breeders I talked about (the breeder of my dog here in the States and the breeder of my dog's dam over in Germany), the bitches bred were not from the more popular lines and did not have dogs in their pedigree that every other dog out there was line bred 3-4 on. And that, I actually found to be more justifiable than the same breeders breeding a similar bitch heavy on a popular dog in the recent history of the breed. There is a reason that the American show lines now will advertise "Dallas-free" despite the popularity of the dog itself.

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

E, sounds like this breeder has his game together, I hope all those homes are lasting homes but it also sounds like he'd be the guy who'd take back puppies that didn't suit their new home should the need arise.

Absolutely! His contract doesn't just cover HD and ED, but from everything to temperament to health to something as comparably insignificant as size and color and whether or not ears stand. He'll take a dog back no matter what, and refund if the dog is younger than 2.

Originally Posted by puppydog

If the puppies are phenomenal I will breed her a maximum of three times. She is my pet and her quality of life if far more important to me then pumping out puppies.

Did someone say Riley puppies?!?

Uh-oh. This is bad for my Papillon fever