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  #31  
Old 03-15-2011, 03:06 AM
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Oh, just FYI. The stud I have chosen for Riley's second litter.

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  #32  
Old 03-15-2011, 04:29 AM
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Oh, just FYI. The stud I have chosen for Riley's second litter.

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Now you know you shouldn't have shown me that. Why oh why would you do that to me BAD!
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  #33  
Old 03-15-2011, 05:56 AM
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He is lovely isn't he? He is a nice tall dog, I like them tall!
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  #34  
Old 03-15-2011, 06:15 AM
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He is lovely isn't he? He is a nice tall dog, I like them tall!
Yes quite lov...CLASSIC TRI!!!!...ely yes yes very lovely indeed Honestly though I love how he carries himself. Travis is more beautiful in my opinion though. The other one just has a colour advantage that I am inclined
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  #35  
Old 03-15-2011, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post

Reason I feel against "over breeding" any dogs (no, I have no mathematical ideal unfortunately) is not honestly the humanity pressed upon the dog itself but rather the lack of available suitable homes for this over breeding.
You may have an emotional opposition to over X number of litters but healthy female animals are meant to reproduce. There are generally no lack of homes for well bred puppies, especially of the more popular breeds.

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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I think a lot of my concern with breeding with such frequency, titled or not, is there is such a small market for truly appropriate working dog homes and the vast market for pet homes could just as easily be shared with the rescue dogs of the world.

There has to be a happy median and breeding is not an evil doing (when responsible) but I do believe that many breeders (even those with excellent dogs) breed more puppies than needed in society today.
Actually in many breeds, they aren't breeding enough puppies. Pet owners shouldn't have to take on an adult rescue or mixed breed puppy because they don't "need" a well bred dog. It is sad to me that we now live in a time when even people who breed dogs or are considering breeding dogs seem to feel that it is unethical. For purebred dogs to continue, we need breeders breeding quality dogs.

I would strongly suggest reading this article, it fits in very well with this discussion and shows the effect that breeders breeding less is having on purebred dogs: Breeding Better Dogs

Also part 2:Breeding Better Dogs


"Who would have suspected that in just nine years, the blind acceptance of undefined labels would have significantly reduced the size of the AKC stud book and the gene pools of 35 breeds (Table 1). There are no accurate figures on the number of pups sold on limited registrations that were not registered but some estimates suggest the number may be at least another 100,000 per year. When the effects of both are taken as a whole, no one can question their impact on declining registrations, gene pool size and genetic diversity. It has been astonishing. The unintended consequences of these efforts have no equal."
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  #36  
Old 03-15-2011, 11:07 AM
UniquityBelgians UniquityBelgians is offline
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Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
1. No, I don't think any bitch is *that* special. If she's having smaller litters than the breed's average, perhaps you should consider that's a problem you're passing on by continuing to breed her. I just feel if you can't get what you want out of one or two litters from the same bitch, move on. I've personally never bred a bitch more than twice.
If you're talking about my female, ther fertility issues are not genetic. The repro vet opened her up and looked at her uterus. It's very healthy. She had an extreme illness as a puppy that caused a high fever for several weeks. Two of her littermates died. She was left with fertility issues.
I think it really depends on the breed, what you're describing above. For a breed like mine with a dwindling gene pool, rare lines should be utilized as much as possible. Epilepsy already affects 10-30% of our breed, and the majority of people use similar lines and linebreed on similar epi carriers. Breeding a bitch with uncommon lines more than twice shouldn't be a crime when there is the purpose of widening the gene pool. Especially when this is also a breed that is losing bone, substance, angulation, and hardness in temperament, and the bitch has all of these qualities. After all, improving the breed is the goal.
Now saying that if you're not happy with what the bitch has already produced and that validates her elimination from the gene pool is just counterproductive. If it is a REALLY nice bitch, there is NO reason she can't produce well if she is bred to the right male. This is where pedigree research comes in to play, and looking at what the stud dog has produced in the past with similar females etc, and just choosing a dog who compliments your bitch. If you aren't happy with what she produced in two litters, it's not the bitch's fault, that is YOUR fault as a breeder. Now if it's a mediocre or poor bitch, she shouldn't be bred in the first place, unless there is something that really warrants it.
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  #37  
Old 03-15-2011, 11:38 AM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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I have worked in rescue far to long to believe that the average breed is failing wildly. Dandie Dinmonts, sure, breed away but be damed sure you have suitable homes for all those puppies. Truth is most breeds that are lacking in numbers have a evolutionary or sociological reasoning for such decline. There just aren't enough people interested/suitable for many of our less common pure bred dogs. The average person has no business owning a spanish mastiff or a thai ridgeback or a xolo, the average person also rarely has interest in a spanish galgo or a lundehund (but give akc time and this too may change) or a mudi. Yes, these breeds have a smaller gene pool but really, why should it expand as long as it is healthfully maintained? To force expansion without a demand of suitable homes only runs the risk of said breed to falter in standard join the hundreds of others found regularly in ill health and shelters.

To add to which I sure hope in the "we need to breed more" mantra there is a (insert better dogs here) astrid.

The world is filled with purebred dogs, breeding better dogs is about quality not quantity.

You'll never achieve the goal of preservation of the proper dog if you're breeding for numbers alone. Look at the most popular breeds today, sure they have numbers but unfortunately the large majority of them are complete wrecks. Unfortunately my heart breed, the apbt, is a wreck and we can thank the breeding for this. Staffordshire Bull terriers seem in far better shape as far as health and temperament and they as a general rule have been far more selective in their breedings and placements of puppies, I can't imagine this is a sheer coincidence.

I am hoping I am misunderstanding your point here but are you truly debating that breeding dogs never mind them owning their provocation of betterment of their breed nor the outstanding number of suitable life long homes is a wise choice?

Should I in theory breed my malinois now, prior to their OFA scores, prior to their breed exam in their sch1, prior to their provocation of lack of unstable behaviors and without examination of compatibility to one anothers pedigree and pros and cons?

If that is true, unfortunately, we'll have to agree to disagree because I would rather see my breeds of choice fade into the gray than go down in flames... oh wait, I'm watching that already. Grand.
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  #38  
Old 03-15-2011, 11:58 AM
UniquityBelgians UniquityBelgians is offline
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Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
In my breed, my dogs come in season like clockwork every 6 months. For me to breed back to back, a bitch's first litter would just be 4 months old.
It's unusual in my breed for dogs to come in 4 months after having a litter. When I do a back to back, my pups are ten months old before the next litter is born.
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  #39  
Old 03-15-2011, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniquityBelgians View Post
It's unusual in my breed for dogs to come in 4 months after having a litter. When I do a back to back, my pups are ten months old before the next litter is born.
I was checking your website (this is OT slightly) and you have very nice dogs! You also seem to have very small litters as well? From your stats page? Is that common in your line or just your female?

I assume these small litters would sway the reasoning for some answers as well, a vast difference from the 9-12 puppy litters common in many medium size dogs.
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  #40  
Old 03-15-2011, 12:10 PM
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APBT went downhill when they were no longer bred for performance only and were bred for "the look and the prestige". I can't even have an APBT due to the lovely breed restrictions in my province. All I can do is look at nice kennels and dream. Blech. Stupid gov't.

As for Malis; there are quite a few working dog people that figure breeding for sport is what is causing the demise of Mals. They should have remained in the provenance of working dogmen - police/detection.

Similar probably to what working Terrier, sight hound and collie and yes mastiff people have experienced, once pet homes get hooked, then it becomes a shitshow as to where/what is being bred/selected for. As for pet/"lap" breeds I think it became a shitshow when large purses became fashionable; and for some ungodly reason pet dogs didn't need to be healthy.

Quote:
1. Breed a bitch up to 5 times
2. Breed 5-6 litters in some years
3. Breed back to back heats (not all time time, usually just 2 litters on back to back heats, I've never seen 3)
4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches
1 - Key word here is likely the "up to" -- sure, if you have a need for your bloodlines to be crossed/developed with different sires; then you would need to breed her a few times to different sires. Possibly also if you have small litters -- which can happen with frozen semen; not just a fertility problem with the female -- so depends on WHAT you are breeding FOR/and the RESULTS you end up WITH.
2. This one is tricky -- however depends again on what bitches bloodlines to what stud bloodlines -- 3 unrelated bitches bred to Stud X whelp 5 puppies each in February, come back in heat in June, 2 are bred to Stud Y whelp 4 puppies each in August -- that's 5 litters 23 puppies -- some breeds that produce big litters could have that with 2 litters. Same deal as any responsible breeder -- have a need to improve your own kennel and want to keep back/tabs on pups from each litter -- or have someone else that wants to have something from your female -- + good homes for each pup.
3. I do believe the back to back health benefits; but I also think that the bitch has to come back healthy inbetween; not fair to her to run her down physically; even if her uterus is healthier -- the whole dog counts; not just the repro organs!
4. Sure -- depends on dog's health -- wouldn't think I'd want to see it in a first time uterus -- but that too may depend, I'm not up on my aged uterus health issues.
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