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  #11  
Old 03-14-2011, 08:22 AM
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It all depends on the health of the dogs involved and what they're producing. How someone can say i'm going to breed this bitch 2-3 times and then she'll be done? What if your first litter sucks? going to breed her again? what if it was the male? what if it was her?

what if she has a tough delievery? what if she has a lot of trouble raising the pups? Still going to breed?

what if the puppies are phenomenal? what if the traits are so perfect and so consistent are you going to stop at one or two breedings?What if she's 8 and acts 2, can run circles around most dogs half her age and has never had issue being pregnant or giving birth? Not going to breed because you have some number in your head?
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  #12  
Old 03-14-2011, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Michiyo-Fir View Post
1. Breed a bitch up to 5 times
2. Breed 5-6 litters in some years
3. Breed back to back heats (not all time time, usually just 2 litters on back to back heats, I've never seen 3)
4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches

I think all this just depends on the condition of the dog and the purpose of the breeder. I have never bred a bitch more than 3 times, but I know people who have bred their dogs 4-5 times.

I could never personally handle 5-6 litters a year. 1.. or 2 very well spaced out is about all I can do lol but again, I know people (with a much smaller breed than I have) who have had 7-8 litters a year. Then some years they only have 1 litter. It just depends. Many of the litters are co-bred and so while most are whelped at their house, other breeders co-bred the litter with them, so they took half the litter.

I don't have a huge issue with back to back breedings, as long as the bitch is in good condition. Again, just depends on the dog. I have done back to back breedings before, however my dogs don't come in season every 6 months. Most of mine are only in season every 10-11 months. I have one bitch that goes a full year between seasons, almost exactly like clock work.

Again, I think the age of the bitch being bred, also depends on the condition of the bitch. If she is healthy, active and still looks physically capable of having a litter, I have no problems with a 7 yr old having a litter. Thats about as old as I would personally breed one... but I'm sure people breed older than that.
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michiyo-Fir View Post
For you, what is considered acceptable breeding practice and good breeding practice?

I've recently noticed some breeders or what a lot of people consider to be good to great dogs do several things.

1. Breed a bitch up to 5 times
2. Breed 5-6 litters in some years
3. Breed back to back heats (not all time time, usually just 2 litters on back to back heats, I've never seen 3)
4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches

Are these practices considered to be acceptable by your standards on breeders that you think are reputable/good?

If not, what are your accepted limits for the 4 items points shown above?

I think we try to make it too black and white. It all really just depends on the dog in question and the breeder's goals. The only way I'll find someone I 100% agree with is likely if I do the breeding myself. I agree a lot with what other people have said. It all just depends.

I think breed also plays a part in things too. 5-6 litters a year in papillons is not that many individual pups. It would likely only be the same amount of pups as 2 or so large breed litters. If the breeder can handle it though and breed quality dogs and place them well then it is a non-issue to me. Now, if they're breeding crappy dogs and the dogs are not finding good homes that's a problem.

I see age a similar way. I know many breeders who have used older bitches. Beau's mom was 8 when he was born and I think Summer's was 7. 7 or 8 isn't very old in a papillon. Both of them are still around now at 14 and doing pretty well. At 8 they were spry and in great shape. Their previous litters had grown up and were old enough to really be evaluated.
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  #14  
Old 03-14-2011, 11:27 AM
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Instead of looking for fault with the breeder, what are their good points? Why are you considering them? Do they produce quality dogs that are suited for your purposes? Do they raise their puppies in way you feel is appropriate? Do they seem knowledgeable and reasonable about their dogs? Is there a demand within their chosen venue for their dogs? Those are much more important questions. In my breed, none of that is real uncommon except maybe number of litters a year and even that could depend on other factors from year to year (litter size, co-ownerships, etc.). If all breeders only bred rarely, bred no more than a couple litters out of one or maybe two bitches and never bred a dog over 4, it would have devastating effects on the gene pools of most breeds. Not surprisingly given years of AR propaganda, it seems that most people are educated that such traits are a sign of a "good" breeder. I encourage everyone to read this article, which explains how modern ideals can hurt purebred dogs: Breeding Better Dogs
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  #15  
Old 03-14-2011, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michiyo-Fir View Post
For you, what is considered acceptable breeding practice and good breeding practice?

I've recently noticed some breeders or what a lot of people consider to be good to great dogs do several things.

1. Breed a bitch up to 5 times
2. Breed 5-6 litters in some years
3. Breed back to back heats (not all time time, usually just 2 litters on back to back heats, I've never seen 3)
4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches

Are these practices considered to be acceptable by your standards on breeders that you think are reputable/good?

If not, what are your accepted limits for the 4 items points shown above?

My opinions are a bit more stringent than some. Sure, there is an exception to every rule but most people who are breeding shouldn't be breeding and usually when you get a feeling they're bending their ethics for the all mighty dollar or pride, truth is, they are.

Breeding a bitch 5 times is far more than needed. A very famous winning show GSD was bred a couple hundred times, was it needed? Nope, they wanted the stud fees and he produced epileptic, dysplastic, and PRA ridden puppies. The dog himself was none of those things but over breeding without proven litters in the field allows for such mistakes to be amplified.

Rarely, if ever, should a dog or a bitch be over bred. Few breeds "need" that many puppies in any given year.

I think when you're breeding 5 litters a year you're by passing a hobby/passion breeding status. Where do you have the time to work and title your stock when you breed 6 times a year? I've worked for a gal who did this and yes, her stock was titled but they also lived in kennel runs only to be show and bred. Gee, what a glorious life that must be.

A very well known GSD kennel boasts about their 350+ some litters in their 25-35 years of business (i forget the exact numbers). Sure, they've produced some fine stock but everyone will if they play the game of numbers. No one ever talks about all the wash outs and where those end up. I could go on and on with people like the sport mix breeders in BS and now BW.


Breeding back to back is healthier with a break after.


I'm not against people breeding past 7 or 8 in some breeds but it has to be case by case really for me.
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  #16  
Old 03-14-2011, 11:44 AM
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1. Breed a bitch up to 5 times
Can't say I have much of an opinion. I'd hope one would get what they wanted from a bitch before 5 litters, but if well taken care of it could be fine.

2. Breed 5-6 litters in some years

Depends upon how many pups you produced. Smudge came from a litter of 9, but there are more than enough cockers popping out 3 pups regularly. 3 doesn't give you that much to work with if you are looking for something specific.

3. Breed back to back heats (not all time time, usually just 2 litters on back to back heats, I've never seen 3)

There was a huge thread with some scientific backing that back to back might be healthier.

4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches
Some breeders don't start breeding till their dogs are older. Better chance at health and longevity starting with a still healthy 4 year old, than starting breeding at 2 and something could crop up in a year. Still unknowns, but waiting and then breeding later is common enough.

Smudge's sire was 12 when he was conceived. His dam may have been 7. Both were healthy. Better chance for hopefully Smudge to stay that way.
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  #17  
Old 03-14-2011, 11:46 AM
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1. Breed a bitch up to 5 times - Personaly I would have a hard time with this one. However I could take it on a case by case basis.

2. Breed 5-6 litters in some years - That is alot. But some people can handle it. Also, I never judge from what I have seen in magazines, webs, ect... I know of a few ethical breeders, who technicly have 10+ litters in a year. However once you look closer, you will see that they co own the bitch or own the sire, or are just co breeding the litter, or are just on the litter because of a contract obligation with the dam/stud. It gets complicated.

3. Breed back to back heats (not all time time, usually just 2 litters on back to back heats, I've never seen 3) Not a problem if it's only 2 litters back to back.

4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches Depands on the breed and the dog.
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  #18  
Old 03-14-2011, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MafiaPrincess View Post
Depends upon how many pups you produced. Smudge came from a litter of 9, but there are more than enough cockers popping out 3 pups regularly. 3 doesn't give you that much to work with if you are looking for something specific.
That's the way I see it too. Beau's breeder I believe had 3 litters one year. The three litters gave her a grand total of 5 pups. She's even had 2 litters at once (Summer's litter and Beau's litter were on the ground at the same time). Again having 2 litters on the ground was only 5 pups at once, which is smaller than many large breed litters.
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  #19  
Old 03-14-2011, 02:09 PM
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I just wanted to add that Nia's breeder usually breeds whichever bitches she wants bred around the same time if that's when they go into heat. She usually raises all the pups at the same time. With Nia, at the time she had 3 litters born within 2 weeks of each other and raised a total of 7 pups.

I feel a little bit iffy about the number of pups being produced in the situation I was describing. The parents are all well tested and in good health and puppies are always in extremely high demand. In fact even with numbers like these it's extremely difficult to get a pup.

The breed produces 6-8 pups per litter though. That makes 30+ pups a year, a part of me wonders if there isn't some motive of money involved.

They do have an extensive socialization program for the pups though...


Edit: They do apparently have lots of help..
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:47 PM
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Personally I like to see an older bitch being bred vs. one just barely old enough to health test, but that is in borzois. A lot of the breeder's I respect and whose lines I admire for their working ability and health/longevity wait until all their dogs are over 5 until making the decision to breed them. Part of that is weeding out individuals who are prone to osteosarcoma and bloat. It's generally accepted among borzoi breeders that dogs who are genetically predisposed to it are more likely to get it before they turn 5. By waiting you avoid breeding a dog who is going to develop that problem later in life.

Kaia's granddam was bred for her first and only litter at 9 years old. She was very healthy and lived a loooong time. Her puppies are now 7-8 years old and show no sign of slowing down or old age. They compete in the specials class at dog shows with young dogs, unlike a lot of the veteran dogs who are the same age as them but are starting to look and act old.

Back to back litters used to bug me, but now I'm of the opinion that if a bitch is only going to be bred twice ever and is in good condition after the first, it's probably easier on her to do them back to back and then spay. Personally I probably wouldn't do it, because I'd probably be wanting a puppy from each and it'd be more convenient to space them a year or two apart.

ETA: Litter size makes a big difference. It's very common for borzois to have 12-ish puppies in a litter. If I bred a dog and she only had a singleton, or three, and was still in good condition I might consider doing a back to back repeat breeding or something.
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