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  #51  
Old 03-01-2011, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Fransheska101 View Post
He came to my school to do a talk and I got to meet him

I think he is a very nice man, and daddy (the dog) is incredibly sweet.

but I also don't agree with his training methods and wouldn't use them on my dogs.

I don't think ALL his training methods are abusive..but I do think there are a few shows where he has gone too far.

I think the biggest danger isn't even Cesar himself.
its the people who watch the show and try to mimick him
I totally agree, especially with the last part.

I'm not a fan of his methods, have never used them or have felt the need to use them, but minus the alpha rolling and strangling occasionally of the things he says hold water.

Brad Pattison is by far my least favorite of the TV trainers. He'll put all his weight into yanking on a dogs collar and will send it off its feet. There's a video on youtube of him popping a dog really hard in the nose. On top of this he's a complete and total prick - CM is at least approachable and friendly (I guess that's why he's done so well - kind of like the Pat Parelli of the dog world, all the women who have no idea what they're doing with their dog/horse love him), BP frequently screams at his clients and is just generally an asshole. That said, Cesar is probably far more 'dangerous' than he is as he has a much bigger following of people who will try and imitate him.
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  #52  
Old 03-01-2011, 08:58 AM
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I have said it before and I maintain my position, the little good that CM does, doesn't out weigh the harm. Bottomline is most people do not have enough experience and education to be able to separate the good methods from the ones that make problems worse.
I get sick and tired of fixing problems that have been created by people watching that show and others. Little problems that could have been easily fixed that are now huge esculated problems from dogs that are defensive and/or scared and dogs that are NOT trained.
Recently had a very nice older puppy in a class, he was progressing and doing very well. Towards the end of the course, he took a major regression far beyond a normal regression that one sees in training. Presenting problems that had never been there, he just didn't regress backwards a few steps, he crashed. Owner admitted that they had ordered the CM dvd's and they had finally arrived a couple of weeks before that. This pup went from being a happy and looking forward to training pup to a cowering, pulling away from his owner on leash and not willing to do any of the behaviours that he had already learned. A dog that was motivated by both play and food rewards, now he didn't want any part of anything, unwilling to offer a single behaviour that had been trained. Congrats, those methods had undone everything we were getting, oh and he had also bit a child and an adult recently which had never been a problem before that........yeah they rolled him and he bit when they reached from him afterwards. Go figure.
The owner was shocked at how it had back fired on them and now we are working to undo it. But it is truely sad to see the look of mistrust in his eyes now, although fading and coming back to an eager happy baby dog. Time, patience and solid methods will undo it. So yeah, I am not a fan because I see the fall out all the time.
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  #53  
Old 03-01-2011, 01:18 PM
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How sad for that puppy! But it's great that the owner was willing to admit that his CM techniques were to blame, rather than the "bad" puppy. So many owners wouldn't have. And how reassuring that he is working to undo the harm! So many, many owners wouldn't do that either.
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  #54  
Old 03-01-2011, 05:21 PM
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I find that alot of the problems that CM clients have are not a dog problem, but a people problem. Most of the issues seem to be caused from lack of excercise. At least that seems to me the route of most of the issues CM "helps" with.
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  #55  
Old 03-01-2011, 05:55 PM
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When you strip away all the BS about dominance, pack theory and TSSSSTTTT, CM's foundations for dogs do hold water - dogs need exercise and boundaries in their lives in order to be good pets.

I don't know if I would classify him as abusive. If I give one of my dogs a leash pop, they're going to give me a weird look and carry on. If I poke them in the neck and TSSST, I'd probably get the same response. I've seen much harsher things done to dogs and I really can't call that kind of "training" abuse. It's not good, it's far less effective than other methods, but on a scale of 1 to OMGWTF, what he does is rather mild.

I wholeheartedly agree with Fran that the danger is not CM himself, but the sheep who follow him and imitate his every move with their own dog. These people do far more harm to dogs than Mr. Millan.
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:08 PM
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Also, in regards to Shadow, I think Cesar just repeatedly set him up to fail.

However, if a dog does that to me, you bet I'll hang him up until he passes out before I'll let him bite me. There was no stopping at that point once Cesar had riled that dog up into a rage, he had to hang him up and wait it out or else he was going to get his ass kicked. That wasn't training, that was self defense. I think it's sick that he marketed it as training.
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by RD View Post
I don't know if I would classify him as abusive. If I give one of my dogs a leash pop, they're going to give me a weird look and carry on. If I poke them in the neck and TSSST, I'd probably get the same response. I've seen much harsher things done to dogs and I really can't call that kind of "training" abuse. It's not good, it's far less effective than other methods, but on a scale of 1 to OMGWTF, what he does is rather mild.
It's not the leash pop and the poke and the hiss that makes it abuse. It's the setting them up to fail and provoking them into a fight for the sake of drama, it's the pushing them so far past their threshold and raising their stress levels until they completely shut down.
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  #58  
Old 03-01-2011, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayleyMarie View Post
I find that alot of the problems that CM clients have are not a dog problem, but a people problem. Most of the issues seem to be caused from lack of excercise. At least that seems to me the route of most of the issues CM "helps" with.
Nobody would claim that exercise and boundries are not required and that really should be a no brainer (although I know it isn't, sadly). How is it a people problem? When they can't/don't or are terribly unsuccessful at training and then use his most extreme methods to fix it?

Good grief, I talk to people all the time that are ambushing their dogs and pups. They are not training the dogs on any level but the second the dog does something they don't like, its wham, slam it to the ground and hold it there.
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  #59  
Old 03-01-2011, 07:06 PM
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However, if a dog does that to me, you bet I'll hang him up until he passes out before I'll let him bite me.
But that's the thing. Dogs are by nature NON confrontational, and unless the dog is rabid, 99.9% dogs don't come out and attack like that unless provoked to and not given an escape route.

I have a 140 pound ex-feral great dane. He's probably eye to eye with CMillan standing on all four feet. Lunar is one of those true "dominant" dogs Michael Ellis talks about in that video I posted. He's as sweet and tractable as you could want, until you try and pick a fight with him. At that point he will give you every opportunity to knock it off, and then he'll tell you enough is enough. And it won't be pretty I promise.

What CMillan is doing in that video is to me like jabbing someone in the shoulder until they come back at you, then you pull out a gun and shoot them claiming you "had to" because your life is in danger. That's not self-defense, that's just stupid.
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  #60  
Old 03-02-2011, 05:01 AM
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But that's the thing. Dogs are by nature NON confrontational, and unless the dog is rabid, 99.9% dogs don't come out and attack like that unless provoked to and not given an escape route.

I have a 140 pound ex-feral great dane. He's probably eye to eye with CMillan standing on all four feet. Lunar is one of those true "dominant" dogs Michael Ellis talks about in that video I posted. He's as sweet and tractable as you could want, until you try and pick a fight with him. At that point he will give you every opportunity to knock it off, and then he'll tell you enough is enough. And it won't be pretty I promise.

What CMillan is doing in that video is to me like jabbing someone in the shoulder until they come back at you, then you pull out a gun and shoot them claiming you "had to" because your life is in danger. That's not self-defense, that's just stupid.

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