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  #11  
Old 02-27-2011, 02:48 PM
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Danefied Danefied is offline
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Are his methods abusive? Yes. No doubt in my mind that hanging a dog until his tongue is blue and he loses bladder control, or forcefully pushing a dog on his side so that he thinks he is dying is abuse.
There is no excuse for someone as exposed to the dog training world as he is to continue using these practices knowing full well that other methods work just as well if not better.

However... I also have learned that there is no surer way to make people tune you out than to disparage their hero or worse, accuse him of abuse. Bear in mind that many people do the same "tst, tst" to their dogs and attempted alpha rolls, with what they see as "good" results. If you accuse Cesar, you are accusing them by default, and they will become defensive and stop listening.

I think the best argument we have against the CM wannabes of the world is our own dogs. And when people ask me how I got my dogs to behave as well as they do, I talk up positive, dog-friendly training.
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  #12  
Old 02-27-2011, 02:49 PM
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Oh and for some real fun, check out this genius "dog phychologist"
Dog Training Classes Sacramento-Dog Obedience Classes Sacramento.
Its a whole franchise!!!
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by developing our powers of empathy and observation,
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  #13  
Old 02-27-2011, 02:50 PM
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Dekka Dekka is offline
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The main issue with that, Danefied, is that they then tell me oh thats great it worked for my dogs, but that their dog was 'too bad' or a 'special' case and that positive methods only work on dogs with out issues....

I have heard this from many people, including dog people.
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  #14  
Old 02-27-2011, 02:54 PM
stardogs stardogs is offline
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My response when people ask me if I'm like CM because I train professionally is "Yea, but better. I use more modern methods." That sounds cocky, but it's true and often will spark a good discussion.
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  #15  
Old 02-27-2011, 03:01 PM
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I usually go with
"My dog WANTS to be next to me and work with me.. he thinks training is fun. You may be the alpha leader..but I have a dog who loves me and loves training. So instead of walking in the perfect heel because he's scared I'm gonna ring his neck.. he does it because being around me is fun"
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  #16  
Old 02-27-2011, 03:07 PM
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Danefied Danefied is offline
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I know, I know, I hear it to. And seriously, I don't know what the answer is, because if you tell them PR works on X,Y,Z, they'll find a "yeah but". I think there are people out there who PREFER to manhandle their dogs for whatever reason. And for that I have no answer other than to hope we continue to evolve as human beings.

I have a 140# great dane, gone feral, eating livestock, shot at at least twice, had to be caught in a live trap... He landed in the county shelter, destined to be PTS after his stray hold. MAGDRL helped us get him pulled and in the meantime he badly failed the temperament test.

This is a dog who bit the shelter evaluator and my husband. This is a dog who had been fending for himself as a feral, who had been clearly abused before then.
We rehabbed him using 100% PR. He was our first completely PR rehab and he is our biggest success.
I knew intellectually that he was going to have to be safe around our kids, and that even though I'm a big girl, no way could I overpower a full grown great dane.

Some things you just have to experience for yourself.
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by developing our powers of empathy and observation,
and by searching for better ways to teach and educate the dogs we love."
~Suzanne Clothier
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  #17  
Old 02-27-2011, 03:16 PM
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I explain how what they are doing is 'working' ie suppression and how using his methods could backfire.
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  #18  
Old 02-27-2011, 03:28 PM
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My trainer uses the spider analogy

Loosely paraphrased:

"If you were afraid of spiders and I put one in your face, you'd likely try to run. Now if I prevented you from running, you might swat it away. Now if I smacked you upside the head every time you swatted at the spider, you might very well quit swatting the spider away.
BUT
What's going to happen when a spider shows up and I'm not around?
More importantly, did you stop being afraid of spiders?"
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"We become better trainers by refusing to swallow uncritically what is tossed to us as truth,
by developing our powers of empathy and observation,
and by searching for better ways to teach and educate the dogs we love."
~Suzanne Clothier
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  #19  
Old 02-28-2011, 12:54 AM
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The man makes me want to vomit!

Calm assertive state? PUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #20  
Old 02-28-2011, 01:01 AM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
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Quote:
He came to my school to do a talk and I got to meet him
Bad things might happen if I had that opportunity
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