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  #21  
Old 01-20-2011, 07:50 PM
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True not in all cases. Im more thinking of what I use my dogs for more then any other type of work. I dont know much about the other types though so I shoulda worded that different.
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  #22  
Old 01-20-2011, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linds View Post
Overall, I agree with a lot of what you said and if/when I breed I will health test. But, again depending on the breed and the severity of the work they do it's not a deal breaker if they don't nor will I loose sleep over it. I'm not talking about coursing, or herding trials or even Ring sports. I'm talking down and dirty all day out in the field from dawn to dusk work. That kind of work tends to let the genetically weak's faults shine through a might earlier. But again, you are right there are still some that can show up later in life.
So I am. I was referring to real working dogs. And yes I have seen it happen. What excuse is there not to health test? IMO unless you are worried about not being able to breed your fave dog you have nothing to loose.

I am talking working BC and working JRTs... and yes it happens with dismaying frequency. And its not that the dog ever shows the issue.

For example. Dog is a fantastic worker, never a problem, he retires with nary an issue. Never health tested... Has ooodles of fantastic working pups. None are health tested.. all of a sudden these dogs start showing issues. But not only has the stud dog sired oodles of dogs, they have started to reproduce.

Why not heath test?
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  #23  
Old 01-20-2011, 09:22 PM
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I guess, at the end of the day if it's the right breeder with great dogs that I feel comfortable with health testing just isn't as high up on my priority or necessity list (again, depends on the breeder, the breed and the work they do daily).

So, I see and agree with almost all your points but for me, it still isn't a deal breaker in all cases
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  #24  
Old 01-20-2011, 10:14 PM
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In the breeds that I own, I would expect:
Complete health testing relevant to the issues found in the breed
Titles
Longevity
Breeder support and knowledge

In no way shape or form would I buy a Doberman from someone who doesn't do something with their dogs. Same thing with Sibes.

If the dogs are so fabulous that they deserve to be bred in the first place, it should be easy to prove it to a third party.

Just my opinion, of course.
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  #25  
Old 01-20-2011, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linds View Post
I guess, at the end of the day if it's the right breeder with great dogs that I feel comfortable with health testing just isn't as high up on my priority or necessity list (again, depends on the breeder, the breed and the work they do daily).

So, I see and agree with almost all your points but for me, it still isn't a deal breaker in all cases
lol ok but why?

What excuse could a breeder have for not health testing? Money, its a drop in the bucket as breeding expenses go. Whether a dog works its whole life sound and healthy makes no difference.

Bounce is the carrier of a serious eye issue. Now that we know that (which we would NEVER know if she wasn't genetically tested) she will be bred to a clear dog. Eventually when the population is such that we don't need all good dogs in the gene pool a dog that is a carrier would never be bred.

Now if I didn't test I would have bred her to a fantastic dog who was a perfect match in pretty much every way. Turns out he was also a carrier.... The dogs could have hunted rabbits and other quarry every day of their lives and we never would have been the wiser. They could have had pups that went on to have more pups before the affected dogs might have started showing issues.

So not sure how working plays into this. And if anyone tells you they have 'clean lines' they are lying, or in denial. To be honest Dekka's lines are mostly British, and most british JRT breeders didn't (don't know if they do now) test. I have no idea what is behind her lines, but it comes down to the 'working dogs' aren't tested issue. The JRT world is starting to change, thank goodness. Non testing working breeders can be the worst offenders at passing on issues... I don't cut them anymore slack than non testing BYBs really.
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  #26  
Old 01-20-2011, 11:10 PM
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I haven't read the other replies yet, here are just my opinions:

I don't really care if the breeder shows or not. No dog matches the breed standard perfectly, so as long as the dog looks like breed XYZ, that's all I care about.

Health testing is high on my priority list. I just can't accept a breeder saying "yeah they're healthy" without having anything to back it up. Especially if there are health problems that are known in the breed. Like cardiomyopathy in boxers. I'm not going to get a boxer pup from a breeder that doesn't test their dogs' hearts.

I also prefer breeders that DO something with their dogs. I'm just looking for a companion, but there are lots of dogs that fit that bill. So if you're breeding, what makes your dogs different from your neighbor's dogs?? I like to see at least a CGC, but even that doesn't say much except that you can train the basics. Most dogs can get a CGC (except for mine, LOL but I'm no trainer). I just don't think it says much about the dog. So a CGC or TDI doesn't hurt, but I'd like to see some other activity tacked on. Even if you just take agility classes or obedience classes with your dogs, and don't necessarily compete... I feel better with breeders that DO THINGS with their dogs.

I also think a good breeder only breeds on occasion, and breeds for themselves first. Not just to meet supply and demand. A good breeder will take back any dog they've bred, at any time. A good breeder begins socializing the pups.

Those are just the first things that came to mind.
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  #27  
Old 01-20-2011, 11:34 PM
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There is actually a breeder in my old agility class. They breed mini aussies and I would never think of her as a reputable breeder. I am pretty good with breeds but I would never have known her dogs were aussies (let alone minis, the male is bigger than most standard aussies I've met! I thought he was a golden x bc or some sort of retriever mix) They're completely driveless and slow on the field (I've trained with TWO of her dogs, one of which she's bred two or three times). And the bitch has a horrible temperament for an aussie. She's super super DA and not driven and just... blah. Anyways, so I am not sure just doing something with the dog is enough.

Anyways, for me there is a lot of grey area that I would consider getting a dog from. So far I have not found my ideal breeder in any of the breeds I want to own. (Making me wonder if I should become my ideal papillon breeder, but that's another thread...)

I agree with most posted here though. I have to add though that I'm okay with the breeder only showing in certain breeds. But I need to know that dogs she's producing are performing well enough. Mia has 0 titles in her 5 gen pedigree that are not show titles (or producing titles). But I did some more research and could tell that the performance potential was there by looking at her pedigree horizontally. There are several multiple MACH dogs starting with her sire's brother who is MACH9, obedience dogs, flyball dogs, working service dogs, and TDI/CGC dogs. So that was enough for me as well as knowing that several half siblings and close relatives had gone on to be owned by agility instructors (and reading their testimonials and watching videos I had a good idea of what Mia would be like). I can see why people want multiple titles but in some cases I'm fine without provided the horizontal pedigree has what I'm looking for and the breeder has experience placing successful performance and/or working dogs.
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  #28  
Old 01-21-2011, 11:02 AM
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Dekka: I just seriously don't care that much especially for Koolies. I'm not even sure what you would test for seeing as they have embraced DNA testing for years and have yet to find a single genetic disorder they can test for that Koolies are prone to. So yeah, they could do a whole range of different health testing just to be on the safe side (and some do, which I get to hear the results of) and that's great and all.

But if the breeder I like has dogs I like that are not throwing dogs with any issues generation upon generation and is part of a breed that has no documented issues that they are prone to then I'm just not going to worry that much. The dogs speak for themselves and it works for me.

Just sit back and be happy you can say "I told you so" if something goes wrong. Otherwise I don't really see why you care that much that I would be willing to get a dog with no health testing depending on the circumstances
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  #29  
Old 01-21-2011, 11:46 AM
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To me, a good breeder wants to find their puppies LOVELY homes.. but doesn't just blanket "good" and "bad" homes based on single things. Like living in apartments, having kids etc.. I would prefer a breeder that judges applications/people CASE BY CASE.

Just wanted to add that because I think its important

I love Romeos breeder, and although I was the VERY DEFINITION of what MANY people adopting out animals fear (young, student, apartment) she trusted me and gave me my best friend!
There were lots and lots and lots of questions!! Including making sure I had my familys support in case my life changed or something went wrong. Which I'm very glad that she did because now that I look back, as much as I thought it wouldn't... MY LIFE DID CHANGE. School, Romeos injury, Moving, Changing university.. and I'm glad I have my family behind me willing to care for him and love him as I would until I get back settled.

For me, a good home is one that promises that the dog they acquire will be loved and cared for it's entire life.
and I think that's more important than some of the other trivial stuff..
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  #30  
Old 01-21-2011, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Dixie's_Mom~ View Post
"IF YOU HAVENT PROVEN YOUR DOGS IN THE SHOW RING BEFORE BREEDING, YOU'RE A BYB!"
Proving in the show ring pretty much holds little to no value to me and alot of the breeds I am interested in. Even some of the companion breeds I would rather see doing sports or therapy work versus showing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linds View Post
Well, what makes a good breeder to me (and I do mean only to me because what I want in a breeder is very different than what other people might want) changes a ton depending on the breed though some carries over.

To me, the breeder staying as true as they can to what the breed was designed and bred for is very important. So if the breed was made to be a companion I see no issue with them being bred primarily for that. But, I want it proven. Just "knowing" your dog could excel at this or that does. not. count. Supposed to be a companion dog? Well then get out there and get a TDI (or equivalent). If the dogs were bred to hunt I want them out there hunting or something close to the equivalent. Herders? Well, have them out there proving they can herd.

I want the breeder to be willing to talk and answer questions. I also want them to be as up front as possible and glad to put me in contact with people that have bought from them.

For a relatively healthy breed health testing is not the end all be all as long as it's a working breed that needs to be in good health to do said job and is worked into the ground. If their dogs are breaking down that's a different story. Again, something that would change depending on the breed of dog.

I don't care if they show in conformation or not, it's irrelevant as long as their dogs have a good sound temperament, working ability and are generally healthy dogs. Form follows function so it's not something I worry about if the dogs are great in all other aspects.

I want the breeder to stand by their dogs but understand that once I buy it it's mine. Period.

Not all dogs are primarily pets for all people. There are a lot of people who see their dogs as tools first, pets second and I don't really have an issue with that. So if someone is breeding dogs that aren't perfect housedogs and selling them to people that don't need/or want that I don't see an issue there

See, the thing is I'm pretty loose with what I want to see a breeder doing in a lot of aspects. I don't care if they are raised outside, I don't care if they are exposed to vacuums or car rides or what have you, I don't even care if they compete with their dogs as long as they are working in some way or another and the dogs they are producing are of stable temperament with sound nerves.

There are a whole lot worse things than breeding a nice dog with a good temperament and sound health while not proving them in some venue and I really can't and won't look down on someone doing that if they are doing it well. But, I wouldn't exactly place them in the "good" breeder category and I certainly wouldn't buy from them. But, again I pretty much would only buy from someone who is actively working their dogs daily or competing with their dog in sports and staying true to what the breed is and is supposed to be.

So yes, at the end of the day I don't believe you can improve or preserve the breed one ounce by not having them out "working" in some way and proving they can do the job their breed was created for.

And I think I just jumped all over and that was one of the less concise posts I've ever made Not sure if I ever answered your question even
^this. Exactly. haha

But if a person - of any breed - is just 'breeding to breed', I don't agree with that. Atleast have some valid reason. Homes lined up, good dogs, need another dog or two, something legit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggie07 View Post
I think so. If they compete in herding events with other herding dogs, it shows how good they are compared to other herding dogs.

For example:
Let's say Border Collie A is in an event. The rancher's dog is Border Collie B. Border Collie A is a champ and excellent at herding. BC B is the rancher's dog and has never been in a herding event. So let's say BC B beats BC A. If you were a BC buyer, wouldn't you be impressed?

But of course, that's little ole me's thinking. I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm giving it a shot. I know I have a lot to learn. A lot.
One, herding trials aren't anything like working on a farm doing chores. They can be similiar and while some trials are harder, they are still different.

Doing chores on a farm is more true to what the breed was created to do. I do think herding trials (USBCHA trials) were created originally to be a way to test many dogs on the same level, though. And I do put stock into a dog that has done well in herding trials, but as I learn more and more about the breed, I've come to understand it's not the only way and shouldn't be the only measuring stick - so to speak.
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