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  #91  
Old 01-24-2011, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dachshunds4me View Post
Oh plenty of washouts have lots of drive, just not enough to "win" and thus are a "washout".
while i know that this happens, i don't think it's really that common. i know there are people out there playing flyball who see dogs as sporting equipment and not as family members, but they are by far the minority.

and we don't all need sub-4 dogs to be happy. my team usually runs regular four, sometimes regular three. i don't think any of our height dogs run under 6 seconds with any regularity, and while we'd all be absolutely thrilled to have a faster height dog, nobody would ever EVER consider dumping their dogs for not being fast enough.
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  #92  
Old 01-24-2011, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dachshunds4me View Post
Well then I am misunderstanding the thread I guess.
I was stating what I felt to be a good breeder and apparently I am wrong.
I see it from the other end. Way too many dogs in rescue. Of every breed.
Thus it appears that bad breeders outweigh good ones.

And I'll get off "my high horse" and just leave the discussion since I stated my opinion already
Have fun, y'all.
I guess I just don't see what the point you were making about breeding for sports or work and then dogs ending up in shelters is... Can you elaborate?

If a breeder breeds dogs of any type (working, pet, low drive, high drive, etc) and stands by them, places them in appropriate homes that will enjoy them, and takes them back if it doesn't work out then what is the problem?
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  #93  
Old 01-24-2011, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dachshunds4me View Post
Yes it is semantics - I didn't meant they bred them to "look" a certain way, I said they bred them with "athletic bodies" and then the other followed.
Yes I agree too many are breeding for looks alone. Remember, I have a dog rescue so I see the end results daily.
Actually no, they bred fast dogs to fast dogs and ended up where they are. In the beginning no one knew what a fast dog looked like, until there were fast dogs breeding true. I rescue too, though most are not being bred for looks. Those in rescue are byb and milled dogs IME.


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Originally Posted by dachshunds4me View Post

I have seen too many JRTs in rescue because people aren't aware of breed traits. Good breeders would place in homes that are well-matched but again, if that were a prominent idea, there wouldn't be so many in rescue so you can't convince me all breeders are doing this
No one said breeders are all doing this. However to be a club affiliated breeder you must sign the breeder's code of ethics. And all heck rains down on people who are found to be not taking dogs back. Once again no one would say that byb or millers are good breeder.

My point was that there are MANY well bred JRTs happily living as pets. Yes you need the right home, but there are a surprising amount of 'right' homes.

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Originally Posted by dachshunds4me View Post
I don't know. I've seen people on another board breeding "Border Jacks" and the like, trying to get insanely driven dogs out of the pairings.
I don't get it...other than these folks are so driven to win with their dogs they've completely lost sight of reality.
What do THEY do with the "wash outs"? Certainly a highly driven mutt is going to be a pain for a regular non-working home. Many dogs are so driven that without a "job" to do they develop tail chasing (OCD style) and other behaviour issues.
Perhaps I should have clarified what I was getting at rather than assuming people would know.
Have you met border jacks? I have. Remember I do play in dog sports . And some of the most insanely driven dogs are couch potatoes at home. Dekka is insanely drivey and fast. And sleeps most of the day and is a very quiet house pet. Reading Shaping for Success by Susan Garrett.... its all about this over the top dog with ridiculous amounts of drive. I mean even by sport standards this dog is insane. Yet she comments about how he is the most unobtrusive of pets. One of my fave agility dogs is crazy drivey. He is a mix of all sorts of things.. all sorts of top agility dogs went into his mix.. I have asked what he is like to live with, the answer? Very easy. AND these dogs are 'easy' even in the off season so its not the training and the trialing that make them easy.

One of the dog's I see at lots of trials is a borderjack. I would totally steal her. She has the size of the JRT but the bidability of the BC. She is drivey but not stupidly so.

What happens to these dogs who don't make it as a top sport prospects? The reasons they aren't good sport prospects are likely going to make them into great pets. They will be bred for biddability, trainability, health and athleticism. If they can't get 'turned on' for sport then they are going to be quite laid back. Sounds like an ideal pet to me

Most sport people are just doing what they love with their beloved pet. Yes people who get a little more serious pick a dog who will do well, but that doesn't mean they want to win at all costs. I personally can't think of anyone that I know (vs heard of) that is like that. If the dog can't perform, or doesn't perform well they don't dump it. They try something else or get a second dog.
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  #94  
Old 01-24-2011, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dachshunds4me View Post
Lizmo then you don't rescue, do you? We've seen plenty of OCD. These dogs get put into shelters and go nuts.




Oh plenty of washouts have lots of drive, just not enough to "win" and thus are a "washout". Again, go to Pet adoption: Want a dog or cat? Adopt a pet on Petfinder and search for any working breed...I'm sure you'll not find one fairly common breed unrepresented!
No, I can't say I've dealt much in the rescue department other than placing a lab I found on the side of the road in a home in Colorado via transport and a rescue staff.

I have a question, how do you know all these OCD dogs are sport drop outs that weren't enough to 'win'? Could they just be dogs that weren't trained properly or in the right hands?
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  #95  
Old 01-24-2011, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JennSLK View Post
Regardless of how good the two dogs you breed together (working, show, ect..) there will be pet quality puppies in the litter.
Not always.
I've seen countless litters of working bred dogs who never produce anything I'd call pet quality. Puppy after puppy after puppy is hard core working quality.

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Originally Posted by JennSLK View Post
RD - IMHO I feal, that no. If you have a toy dog you need to do something with it. Agility, Obediance, Rally, Conformation, ect... There is alot you can do with a toy. You need to prove that your dog has something good to add, not just being a good family pet.
Breeding a dog for obedience/rally/conformation, IMO, is akin to breeding for pet quality. You prove good structure and trainability in those venues. Obedience titles don't help me if I'm looking for a herding dog to work on my farm, but if I want a house pet, they mean a lot.

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Originally Posted by dachshunds4me View Post
If there's no standards or bars set, then why don't we all just breed our pets...?
But those "standards" don't have to be titles. In a working dog, you really can't judge him based on five minutes in the ring. Heck, even Morgan, my least trainable dog, managed to get an obedience title. She even got two blue ribbons in the process.

There are many ways to assess breeding quality outside of the ring.

Quote:
the reason they have this length of leg or that length of snout, or whatever, was usually, in the case of working dogs anyway, due to that is the form that allowed them to function best at what they do.
Form follows function. It's not that the leg length allowed then to perform their intended work. It's that selecting the dogs that excelled in that work created a certain length of leg or snout or ear set or eye shape.

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Originally Posted by dachshunds4me View Post
I don't think GSDs are or were supposed to be bred "for aggression" but for working drive. An aggressive GSD is not "to the standard", so there is a standard to work with.
Depends on how you're defining "aggression".

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And don't you know, they'll listen to other kind of faces but only if they have the secret code words as show in Babe

But you do know that corgis are the only breed pigs will listen to.
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  #96  
Old 01-24-2011, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dachshunds4me View Post
Lizmo then you don't rescue, do you? We've seen plenty of OCD. These dogs get put into shelters and go nuts.
As someone who has gotten dogs to foster when shelters call the JRTRO.. Some dogs are insane in the shelter. One dog, attacked the bars to the point of breaking teeth!!! when people walked by. Out of the shelter he was the quietest most reliable happy little shorty jack you ever met. OCD != insane. Many many drivey dogs are not OCD, and not all OCD dogs are drivey.

The JRTRO often takes dogs from shelters because they don't do well there.. they stress up and up and up. These dogs end up being great pet dogs, far less drivey than working dogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dachshunds4me View Post
Oh plenty of washouts have lots of drive, just not enough to "win" and thus are a "washout". Again, go to Pet adoption: Want a dog or cat? Adopt a pet on Petfinder and search for any working breed...I'm sure you'll not find one fairly common breed unrepresented!
Its not about winning. Winning is more about training for the most part. You could give me the worlds best BC and give Susan Garrett a mediocre one, and her dog would win more often than mine. And one thing I love about dog sports, in almost all cases you don't need to win to get titles.

Its about getting the dog that will work best with you. We own a rescue BC. The reason we have him is because woman who runs the rescue knows us and we know her. She matched us up. Random dogs on petfiner hold no interest for me at all. Its too big a risk. I want a dog who is going to be happy with me. I do realize I am pickier than the average dog owner, but most sport people are.
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  #97  
Old 01-24-2011, 02:24 PM
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Laurelin, I know I quoted you but my questions about Pugs, Pekingnese, Maltese, etc. weren't directed towards you per say, just a general question that was hanging in my head while I read the thread. I know you already said you were talking Papillons. I also strongly prefer the Pugs active in agility, over the ones I see being bred as pet quality, or even show quality. I love MandyPug's girl and Kuma from the other forum. I was just wondering what owners of those breeds had to say about the types of breeders they advice everyone to avoid (going beyond personal preference).

Quote:
Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
Not always.
I've seen countless litters of working bred dogs who never produce anything I'd call pet quality. Puppy after puppy after puppy is hard core working quality.

Breeding a dog for obedience/rally/conformation, IMO, is akin to breeding for pet quality. You prove good structure and trainability in those venues. Obedience titles don't help me if I'm looking for a herding dog to work on my farm, but if I want a house pet, they mean a lot.

But those "standards" don't have to be titles. In a working dog, you really can't judge him based on five minutes in the ring. Heck, even Morgan, my least trainable dog, managed to get an obedience title. She even got two blue ribbons in the process.

There are many ways to assess breeding quality outside of the ring.

Form follows function. It's not that the leg length allowed then to perform their intended work. It's that selecting the dogs that excelled in that work created a certain length of leg or snout or ear set or eye shape.

Depends on how you're defining "aggression".


But you do know that corgis are the only breed pigs will listen to.
Really great posts on everyone's part, but this is really what I was trying to get to.
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  #98  
Old 01-24-2011, 03:28 PM
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I was just wondering what owners of those breeds had to say about the types of breeders they advice everyone to avoid (going beyond personal preference).
To put it simply... I tell everyone to avoid breeders that don't do health testing ESPECIALLY SINCE PDE CAN NOW BE TESTED FOR.

If they don't test, they are not a reputable breeder. PDE is a 100% fatal disease that only effects Pugs so now that we can identify carriers we can hopefully breed away from this awful thing. So i require that all breeding dogs be tested now for PDE, patellas and eyes are very important too but PDE is now THE MOST important thing in my books.
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