Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog Training Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:12 PM
corgipower's Avatar
corgipower corgipower is offline
Tweleve Enthusiest
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: here
Posts: 8,233
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
Obedience is you asking your dog to do something and he does it because you say so, and not because the dog is going to get food or be punished.
Do you do what your boss asks of you just because he says so? Or do you do it because at the end of the week you'll get a paycheck for doing it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
I wouldn't waste one minute on trying to convince someone that the earth is not flat either. This OP and all the aka's is a moron.
Oh, I don't at all believe I'll convince them, but it is fun to play with trolls.

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t91790/
__________________
The slayer of all things happy since 2010
Kibble feeder since 1973

Extreme owner of four herding dogs

puzzles, poetry and so much more ~ Doggy Puzzles created by me
sleep!!!
My dog Votes!
proud member of the MUMS 2009 7th place team CISRA 2009 1st place team SUMS 2009 2nd place team
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:15 PM
Beanie's Avatar
Beanie Beanie is offline
Clicker Cult Coordinator
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 13,583
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
Who wants a dog who doesn't listen unless you have treats?
This is the problem. I'm sorry that there's no nice way to say it, but the belief that dogs trained with food will only work with food present is wrong.
It is unfortunate that people who train primarily with punishment methods find the need to lie and attempt to completely invalidate the success of positive reinforcement methods, but I suppose if you told somebody "Sure, feeding with positive reinforcement can work, but wouldn't you rather train your dog by choking them with a prong and popping them with the leash?" the answer most people would give is "Um, no," and that wouldn't really lead to a successful business strategy.

Training with punishment methods can certainly work and I don't think most positive reinforcement trainers would claim they do not. However, the question is do you WANT to train your dog by popping the collar, choking it, hanging your dog, alpha rolling it, and causing it so much distress that it thrashes around and causing a dog's eyes to become bloodshot? I believe most people would rather not physically harm their dogs repeatedly in order to make them sit when we say "sit."


In conclusion, I agree with Doberluv, and am happy I never changed my custom title. Torturing my dog by training him with treats is an interesting accusation, but I still think being called part of the cookie-waving cult is still the best.
__________________


Auggie - The Flash RN NAJ MXP MJP CGC
Payton - Sharp Dressed Man NA NAJ CGC
Pepper - Chocolate Swizz-l-icious
& the pest, Georgie - Peach Pudding N Pie OA OAJ
The Sheltiechick Blog
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:17 PM
MafiaPrincess's Avatar
MafiaPrincess MafiaPrincess is offline
Obvious trollsare Obvious
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ontario
Posts: 6,134
Default

My AKC reports is acting up.. I can't get Kerri the info she's looking for today..
__________________

Stop paddling your own douchecanoe

CRB Houdini's Apple Cider RXMCL AGDC AADC MSDC MJDC RNT CL3-F CL3-H EXJ Bronze
AAC's Top Dog List ~~ 2007-11 Q's ~~ 2008-11 Q's ~~ 2009-10 Q's
AAC's Overall Top Dog List - 47 Q's and 7 Titles


Stanton Acres Out Of The Ashes SGDC RNMCL MJDC ADC CL3-F CL3-S CL3-H SD-S (SP)
AAC's Top Dog List 2009 - 12 Q's

Stark Naked Burn It To The Ground

Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:19 PM
motherofmany motherofmany is offline
Clicker Extremist
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 482
Default

By all means, find a reputable trainer. One that doesn't follow outdated methods. One with certifications, not just an internet "shingle" filled with lies and distortions to make himself look good.

Here is a good place to start. Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources

The OP and supporter(s)/aka(s) may be morons, but I believe in combatting ignorance head on. Too many dogs have suffered due to these types of "trainers."

Even one observer convinced that positive methods are safer, saner, smarter and more efficacious is worth the discussion
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:26 PM
Laurelin's Avatar
Laurelin Laurelin is offline
I'm All Ears
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 29,957
Default

Honestly watching the toy dogs in the 'toy and small dog' video on the trainer's page you just linked, I don't see obedience, I see a dog that is shut down. Look at when the man approaches the chihuahua and points at it to lie down... The dog cowers first. It's ears are pinned back the ENTIRE video and its tail is never up. It does NOT look happy or pleased at all. Why would I want that?

Also, kind of lame... most their videos of 'obedience' are of dogs just lying there in the house. My dogs do that naturally most the day. I don't need to pay someone to have a dog that will go lie down in bed lol.
__________________
Mia CGC - (5 year old Papillon)
Hank - (approx. 10 month old Spotty Dog)
Summer TG3 TIAD - (10 year old Papillon)
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:26 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Just try me..
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 19,519
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
SACRAMENTO DOG TRAINING
(916) 927-7725 David Baron, Owner . .

Why Choose Us Over Food-Bribery Trainers

You want someone who can get your dog to obey your voice quickly without yelling, violence or bribing with food. Who wants a dog who doesn't listen unless you have treats?
Totally agree who wants a dog who only listens if you have treats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
Obedience is you asking your dog to do something and he does it because you say so, and not because the dog is going to get food or be punished.
Really so you can train a dog just by asking it do do things, no leash corrections, no praise, no yelling, that would be a first and make all the major scientific papers. This would make the person FAMOUS if it was possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
Be forewarned, the words "Positive Reinforcement, Luring and Operant Conditioning." are code for bribing with food. Folks, don't waste your time and money on this nonsense and call us to learn how to train your dog fast without food or violent methods. The cruelest method is the one where the dog never gets trained and the dog no longer respects the owners and is biting people as a direct result of owners trying to train their dog with food. Then the dog has to be euthanized.
This shows the author of this has NO clue of what operant conditioning is. Operant conditioning is another word for training and has nothing to do with 'positive' trainers. Heck Kohler used operant conditioning...

Also this is very interesting as it goes against everything the American Society of animal behaviourists recommend. I myself has rehabbed dogs who were 'aggressive' due to bad handling. I can say you can earn a dogs respect and trust with rewards. In fact its the primary way reccomended by behaviourists. But hey there are those who still claim the earth is flat....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
a real dog trainer, not some kid at the pet shop or side-liner holding classes in the park or at the SPCA. The pinch collar is a tool. Half of the homes we go to the client already has a pinch collar because they hear at work and from their friends that pinch collars often work good for getting hyper or very strong dogs under control. We recommend not using any collar, but you have to start somewhere. We don't tell people which collar to use, just the ones not to use.
Yep go for a real trainer. People with multiple world championships, or national championships. I have talked to such trainers. NONE would recommend an article like this. Go for trainers who can talk knowlegelby about all methods. Who don't dismiss a training style because they don't understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
always people who are against pinch collars have never used one. Usually these people are living in an imaginary dream world where they fantasize about getting their dog under control or off-leash obedient with lots of yummy treats from Mommy for their furry human baby.
Well I have used them, and shock collars. I stopped as I found my dogs learnt faster and were far more reliable in the competition ring when I ditched the punishments and upped the rewards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
is mean is a dog not getting trained and left out-of-control and having to be euthanized. Usually Food-Bribery dog trainers are the first ones to tell you to destroy your dog when the treat training does not work or later on when your dog turns aggressive.
Well once again. NO good positive trainer recommends bribery. The do recommend rewards. NILIF is the best way to take control of an out of control dog. And yes it does get a dog to greatly respect you. It gets the dog to realize all good things come from humans, and that they need to be well mannered in order to earn them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
could anyone be against something that saves many dogs lives?
Because it kills as many dogs as it saves. Teaching a dog to obey out of fear (of pain from a collar etc) does nothing to get them to respect those they know they are 'more powerful than' If its obey the mightiest mentality where does that leave children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
pinch collar was developed by a veterinarian as a safe and humane alternative to choke chains. Pinch collars are what you use on small dogs with easily damagable half-round tracheas like Jack Russel Terriers and Dachshunds with really delicate necks. People who say pinch collars are dangerous are wrong--pinch collars are the safest collar. Again, we say it is mean to not train your dog and have to use collars and leashes.
Sure not training your dog is mean. There are people who use staves to train their dogs. But that isn't necessary. If you need to result to corporal punishment to teach things as easy as heeling, or sit then I think your training techniques suck. Why would you WANT to use force to train when you dont' have to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
collars have saved many dogs lives and only should be used, if at all, for a short time just while training. They are now very popular with women, kids, seniors and people with injuries or disabilities. It only takes about 20%, or less, energy to get the same or more response from a dog wearing one versus a flat buckle collar.
Sure thats true. BUT more people slap them (and halties) on their dogs INSTEAD of training them. Most people use them as a crutch vs training their dogs to want to walk with them.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:27 PM
Sit Stay's Avatar
Sit Stay Sit Stay is offline
Not a Border Collie
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 2,803
Default

This just makes me appreciate the trainer we've been going to for 15 years SO MUCH MORE. We took my childhood dog Jasmine, who we got when I was 3, to her puppy classes, and now I'm volunteering for her to pay off Quinn's puppy classes.

The 'silver lining' here is that she's having to spam a message board to get clients, so hopefully people aren't lured in by all her BS and instead going to better and more reputable trainers. At least that's what I hope, LOL.
__________________

Quinn - English Shepherd


Last edited by Sit Stay; 12-16-2010 at 04:30 PM. Reason: typo!
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:28 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,036
Default

I use treats and clicker training. I also use collar pops when needed. I have used prongs in the past, and will use them in the future IF the need arises. But by far the vast majority of my training is positive reinforcement. I generally work and train my dogs in martingales. Even with using food primarily to train, both my dogs will do as I ask WITHOUT food present.

I don't think I'd be comfortable with a prong on a small dog. I can't foresee a reason to NEED a prong on a small dog. It just doesn't make sense.

This person says she trains SDs. I wouldn't touch one of those SDs with a 10 foot pole. I'll remember to tell anyone looking for an SD to stay FAR, FAR AWAY from this woman. So than you for advertising that you're terrible, and giving us a head up
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:30 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Just try me..
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 19,519
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
Oh, I don't at all believe I'll convince them, but it is fun to play with trolls.

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t91790/
Horray for trolls!

Also when people research this trainer this might pop up....
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:31 PM
motherofmany motherofmany is offline
Clicker Extremist
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 482
Default

I feel like Columbo (does that date me?)

But just one more thing....

It is a heck of a lot easier to phase out the clicker and the food than a choke or a pinch collar
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:42 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site