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  #31  
Old 12-16-2010, 12:14 PM
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skittledoo skittledoo is offline
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Originally Posted by Donald View Post
Not only does this woman have multiple OTCH dogs
really now? and where is said proof of OTCH dogs? hmmm???? come on now... show us some real proof.

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Originally Posted by Donald View Post
From what she says, you food people are the ones torturing your dogs, and you don't even know it. Your dog is the one that suffers.
My dog is super giddy whenever we train. I use clicker training methods and I DO use treats as rewards. My dog is not suffering ONE bit. In fact, he's more than willing to please. I prefer that my dog learns and WANTS to learn rather than a dog that just shuts down and obeys in pure fear. My dog is my best friend, my companion... I'm not willing to sabotage that relationship by using fear-induced training methods... NO FREAKING WAY! I don't see using treat rewards as torture... that's a bit of an oxymoron.

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Originally Posted by Donald View Post
If it makes you feel better to put down someone so obviously passionate about dog training, shame on you.
It's not that it makes us feel better... we just KNOW that there are other ways out there and we'd rather have our dog want to please us and develop a close bond with our dogs then try to have some alpha power over our dogs and have them bow to us in complete fear. So... if you believe that creating pain and fear in your dog to make your dog do as you say is proper training then SHAME ON YOU!

Anyways... carry on little troll
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  #32  
Old 12-16-2010, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
I don't know if they are terribly successful. There have been some much better trolls than this.

I am disapoint.
IDK. This one is starting to get playful.

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Originally Posted by Donald View Post
From what she says, you food people are the ones torturing your dogs, and you don't even know it. Your dog is the one that suffers.

If it makes you feel better to put down someone so obviously passionate about dog training, shame on you.
"You food people"

From what she says? So what she says is fine, but what we say is "putting down"?
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  #33  
Old 12-16-2010, 12:33 PM
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I would like to know how rewarding my dog (by food, toys what ever my dog finds rewarding) for a job well done is torture, yet making a dog's eyes blood shot is not.

Off to tell Dekka she should hate running agility as its obviously torture.
I wonder if this 'trainer' understands how food (or any reward) is used in training. As all of us agree a reward she never be a bribe. Of if they are one of the myriad of crank and yank proponents who think all rewards are bribes, food rewards will make your dog food focused (turn into an uncontrollable food hound in the presence of tasty morsels) and that you must make a dog submit to be 'trained'.
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  #34  
Old 12-16-2010, 12:48 PM
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Laurelin Laurelin is offline
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Honestly, I don't know that I've ever come across someone that doesn't believe in any kind of reward (food, toy, whatever works for that dog, etc). Even the people that use physical corrections also use rewards.
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  #35  
Old 12-16-2010, 12:54 PM
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Remember Mr Richling and his staves? I am pretty sure he was anti reward too.

That reminds me I had this one client with a toller who had taken lessons from a local crank and yank trainer. SHe had been told using food as a reward would ruin her dog, but she could use toys. Ok I thought, most tollers I know are pretty toy crazy so that should work.

NOPE the poor dog was too shut down to be turned on by toys. The owners was argumentative about looking for other options, had to be told repeatedly punishing your dog around equimpent will shut them down. (as it was this dog wouldn't show any speed an any of the foundation games)

She ended up blaming her dog when the rest of the class progressed nicely. But then again they were setting their dogs up to be rewarded for fast accurate performances, where she was not.
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  #36  
Old 12-16-2010, 01:11 PM
motherofmany motherofmany is offline
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Originally Posted by Donald View Post
You ask for proof about JCM's Dog Training School. I went to the website Professional Dog Training and Pet Boarding and clicked on the heading "About the Trainer." Not the sub headings under that.

Not only does this woman have multiple OTCH dogs, but she has titled numerous students dogs. The lady has been professionally training since 1979. One of her dogs has 100 High in Trials. Just last year her new dog got another Dog World Award. As far as movies, her dogs were in "Primary Colors" and featured in "Growing Pains," with way too many more to mention here. She trains Service Dogs, too.
She is also a published author in the Louisiana Film and Video Magazine pertaining to pets in the film industry.
She is highly recommended by the Vets, but most of her business is through word of mouth. She has 4 huge group classes and 3 group locations. You have to be on a waiting list just to get in.

This woman has forgotten more than you will ever know, and when the novelty of playing trainer wears off, she'll still be out there providing a valuable service. From what she says, you food people are the ones torturing your dogs, and you don't even know it. Your dog is the one that suffers.

If it makes you feel better to put down someone so obviously passionate about dog training, shame on you.
Blah blah blah..... here is the problem as I see it. She is still using techniques based upon faulty research and conclusions from 30 frickin years ago! Would you want your physician using outdated materials to form a treatment plan for you? A teacher using outdated materials to teach you or your children?

What we know about dogs and dog behaviors has evolved. The field IS a science discipline and any training program should be the result of studying animal behavior.

A woman who still tries to claim L David Mech's old data as grounds for a dominance based program should not be in the business. Period. She demonstrates, with her advertising, a refusal to keep current with the research and development of dog training.

BTW, ever hear of JoAnne Griffin? Far better stats. Positive trainer. Go figure.

Sitting at my feet right now is a 9 month old labrador retriever bitch who is an AKC Star Puppy (at 4 months) and, according to our trainer, ready for her CGC testing. She has never been hit, strangled, had her feet pinched, her chest kneed, been forced into position or punished in any way. She has had ample positive training, using a clicker and food or a toy/play session, and constant positive reinforcement. I should add, she is being primarily trained by a 14yo boy.

She responds with joy to every request. She lays quietly in a corner while we eat meals. She heels, downs (both on the move and from a sit) sits, retrieves, spins, gives high 5's and shakes, balances treats on her nose until given a release word and her recall is pretty steady, I'd say 90%, and improving daily. She looks to her family with total trust, she is eager to please. She "floods" us when we have something she wants! Example, I have a piece of cheese she will hit the floor in front of me in a sit, wait, then down herself, wait, back to the sit and wave her paw, wait, do a spin, wait, go fetch her dumbell, wait... all in hopes that she will get a goody and a pat.

She has never been hurt by a person. She sees us as the source of all that is good and right and reliable in the world. This is how it should be! Cooperation results in better "obedience" than force. It does require more work. It does require more patience. The rewards are worth the extra effort. Knowing I have never harmed a defenseless animal is worth it.

So stop trying to defend the indefensible. Go to these links and LEARN about proper training techniques:
Karen Pryor Clickertraining
Sirius Dog Training
Pamela Dennison's Positive Motivation Dog Training in Belvidere New Jersey
Welcome to the JeanDonaldson.com
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/
Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources
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  #37  
Old 12-16-2010, 02:39 PM
Donald Donald is offline
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SACRAMENTO DOG TRAINING
(916) 927-7725 David Baron, Owner . .

Why Choose Us Over Food-Bribery Trainers

You want someone who can get your dog to obey your voice quickly without yelling, violence or bribing with food. Who wants a dog who doesn't listen unless you have treats?

Obedience is you asking your dog to do something and he does it because you say so, and not because the dog is going to get food or be punished.

Be forewarned, the words "Positive Reinforcement, Luring and Operant Conditioning." are code for bribing with food. Folks, don't waste your time and money on this nonsense and call us to learn how to train your dog fast without food or violent methods. The cruelest method is the one where the dog never gets trained and the dog no longer respects the owners and is biting people as a direct result of owners trying to train their dog with food. Then the dog has to be euthanized.

Consult a real dog trainer, not some kid at the pet shop or side-liner holding classes in the park or at the SPCA. The pinch collar is a tool. Half of the homes we go to the client already has a pinch collar because they hear at work and from their friends that pinch collars often work good for getting hyper or very strong dogs under control. We recommend not using any collar, but you have to start somewhere. We don't tell people which collar to use, just the ones not to use.

Almost always people who are against pinch collars have never used one. Usually these people are living in an imaginary dream world where they fantasize about getting their dog under control or off-leash obedient with lots of yummy treats from Mommy for their furry human baby.

What is mean is a dog not getting trained and left out-of-control and having to be euthanized. Usually Food-Bribery dog trainers are the first ones to tell you to destroy your dog when the treat training does not work or later on when your dog turns aggressive.

How could anyone be against something that saves many dogs lives?

The pinch collar was developed by a veterinarian as a safe and humane alternative to choke chains. Pinch collars are what you use on small dogs with easily damagable half-round tracheas like Jack Russel Terriers and Dachshunds with really delicate necks. People who say pinch collars are dangerous are wrong--pinch collars are the safest collar. Again, we say it is mean to not train your dog and have to use collars and leashes.

Pinch collars have saved many dogs lives and only should be used, if at all, for a short time just while training. They are now very popular with women, kids, seniors and people with injuries or disabilities. It only takes about 20%, or less, energy to get the same or more response from a dog wearing one versus a flat buckle collar.
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  #38  
Old 12-16-2010, 02:42 PM
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MandyPug MandyPug is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
The pinch collar was developed by a veterinarian as a safe and humane alternative to choke chains. Pinch collars are what you use on small dogs with easily damagable half-round tracheas like Jack Russel Terriers and Dachshunds with really delicate necks. People who say pinch collars are dangerous are wrong--pinch collars are the safest collar. Again, we say it is mean to not train your dog and have to use collars and leashes.

Pinch collars have saved many dogs lives and only should be used, if at all, for a short time just while training. They are now very popular with women, kids, seniors and people with injuries or disabilities. It only takes about 20%, or less, energy to get the same or more response from a dog wearing one versus a flat buckle collar.

Or you know if you're concerned about trachea damage... Use a training method that doesn't use leash/collar corrections.

Oh like say... Clicker training. Which is the reason my dog has a 100% recall since 6 months old.


ETA: Yes prong/pinch collars have their place, but they SHOULDN'T imho be used for basic training. It should be used after you've worked using positive methods if at all. I see no reason that a puppy class or basic obedience class should require chokes or prongs at all, there just isn't a reason to other than to instill fear in these dogs.
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Last edited by MandyPug; 12-16-2010 at 02:52 PM.
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  #39  
Old 12-16-2010, 02:51 PM
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Doberluv Doberluv is offline
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I wouldn't waste one minute on trying to convince someone that the earth is not flat either. This OP and all the aka's is a moron.
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  #40  
Old 12-16-2010, 03:08 PM
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Laurelin Laurelin is offline
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What the heck does some random trainer in california have to do with anything? lol

The video on this page cracks me up though. (Seriously watch it )

Dave The Dog Trainer-NO SHOCK COLLARS,NO FOOD-BRIBERY,NO CLICKERS.
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