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  #11  
Old 11-25-2010, 06:17 AM
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steve was sold on a contract to be neutered by a year but all it took was a conversation with his breeder to get her blessing to keep him intact awhile longer. he was sold as a sport dog, not a breeding prospect, so he has limited akc registration and his adba papers say "non-breeding dog" on the top of them.
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  #12  
Old 11-25-2010, 08:28 AM
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I have wanted to offer incentives for titles (major ones, not CGN/CGC) Really good titled dogs are one of a breeder's advertisments. Usually titled dogs take classes (so people see them) They are trialled (so people see them, and see them doing well)

I would like to this for the JRTs because sooo many people breed JRTs, but few have lines that are proven producers of sport dogs. I have only so much money and time, I can't train and trial them all lol. I would like to do it with the LHW because there are so few, and no one does much other than race them.
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  #13  
Old 11-25-2010, 10:46 AM
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Mia was required to be spayed. To me it was not a big deal because in the end I could choose not to get her spayed and just not have registration papers. I will not get her papers until I finally send in proof of her spay. I understand why breeders do this and it doesn't bother me. My breeder's contract also stated spay at 6 months, but after talking to her Mia was intact until almost a year and it's no problem. I see why breeders don't want their dogs out there producing puppies with many times less than high quality dogs and would require them to be neutered.

Trey was purchased with a note that he was not breeding quality and was sold on limited, but she did offer a monetary incentive to get him neutered and NO requirement to get him neutered. (I believe it was a $200 refund for neutering, and there was another refund if you took him to agility/herding/or obedience classes) I don't see what's wrong with this or how it indicates a breeder is less responsible. It basically worked as incentive to get people to do what she'd prefer without requiring it in her contract. People are motivated by money so I feel this is a good incentive to get people to honor their contract. Trey was actually the first dog we ever had neutered and I think this played a part in it, honestly.

If I ever breed, I might try the incentive program like she had. I really like the idea behind it.
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  #14  
Old 11-26-2010, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equinox View Post
I would not buy from a breeder who requires a dog be spayed/neutered. I feel that the decision to alter your pet is a personal one, and that requiring an animal be fixed is similar to a breeder requiring you to feed a specific brand of food and nothing else. Many people do not feel it necessary to alter their dog (especially when it comes to neutering males) and for the most part, it is done out of convenience for the dog owner. I would rather sell my dog to a person who was responsible and willing to keep an intact dog than someone who wished to surgically fix the dog.

That's just me, though. Not to say, of course, that I don't think breeders should ever require their dogs be fixed. I can understand the incentive behind that. Those are simply not breeders I would personally choose to turn to for a pup.
In a way I agree and I don't. I can definitely see how a breeder of toy breeds, or breeds that are in high demand by puppymillers would want their dogs sold on pet contracts to be altered. With dogs like those, people don't care if the puppies are papered, or if they are even purebred as long as they are tiny and cute. It's not unheard for puppymiller brokers to go through a big song and dance with a good breeder to get a puppy, turn around and resell it to a puppymill as a breeder. Usually those folks get blacklisted by the breed clubs pretty quickly, but it still happens.
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  #15  
Old 11-26-2010, 07:22 PM
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I have known some wonderful breeders (or rather wonderful people who have bred their dogs) who offer sale incentives.

I think they're absolutely fabulous. A little encouragement for titling their off-spring only improved the dog, line, and breed.

I refused to buy a dog that was sold on an alter immediately or prior to buying contract for the costs that most of the dogs (that I looked at) were going for (1,000+). At that point I'll rescue.

An Am bull buddy of mine will refund portions of your puppy purchase with achieved titles. I can't imagine why this would infer him as a bad breeder, to me he's breeding and selling in an effort to create a community driven for the best of the breed, finances aside.
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  #16  
Old 11-27-2010, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post
In a way I agree and I don't. I can definitely see how a breeder of toy breeds, or breeds that are in high demand by puppymillers would want their dogs sold on pet contracts to be altered. With dogs like those, people don't care if the puppies are papered, or if they are even purebred as long as they are tiny and cute. It's not unheard for puppymiller brokers to go through a big song and dance with a good breeder to get a puppy, turn around and resell it to a puppymill as a breeder. Usually those folks get blacklisted by the breed clubs pretty quickly, but it still happens.
Yeah this happens a lot with the toy breeds. You have to be really really careful with intact toy dogs because they can fetch quite a price.
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  #17  
Old 11-28-2010, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by husky hijinx View Post
Does anyone know any breeders who have had success with incentive programs used for puppy placing? ...The point is to increase what you know about what you are producing because with incentives people will sometimes opt to do things they normally wouldn't consider, like putting a title on a pet or having their eyes screened.
Personally, I'd rather spend the time on finding puppy homes that are similar minded to me, who would WANT to do things with their dogs and who would WANT to perform health screenings because they realize it's in the dog's best interest as well as realizing that it helps me with my breeding program.

That said, I do reward my puppy owners with gifts when they finish titles - usually a beautiful, expensive collar to mark the occasion along with some dog treats and toys. I've got a whole package of stuff sitting here now waiting for one more leg of a CDX on a puppy I produced. Fingers crossed for next weekend ...
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  #18  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:53 PM
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I've known breeders who offer incentives for certain things. How successful are these programs? who knows? I think the key is in screening buyers appropriately for interests in the things you would like to see happen for each pup, whether that be competing, or health testing.

For those contracts that REQUIRE spay/neuter that's all great but in reality I beleive that very few breeders will persue enforcement of that contract issue unless they are aware that the dog is actively being bred.

In Canada it is illegal to withold registration papers for any reason. We personally sell ALL our dogs on non-breeding and will change to full registration with CH title, health testing and temperament evaluation. We do recommend spay/neuter after maturity.

We have considered offering incentives for different things. Our breed is a costly one - from purchase price to preventave care, it's all high. Generally the people who choose to keep this breed are not living "pay cheque to pay cheque" so how much of an incentive would a few hundred dollars really be. The cost of putting a title on a dog can be quite high, especially for a newbie who needs time and practice to learn. There's no way I could offer an amount high enough to be worth if for someone to get a title on their dog if they weren't really all that interested in the first place. If I was wanting some health testing done for information purposes there's always the option of paying for it myself.

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  #19  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailcreek View Post
In Canada it is illegal to withold registration papers for any reason.
Actually, that's not quite right. There can be a written agreement in place stipulating that certain conditions must be met before the registration is provided. For instance, the spay/neuter must have taken place prior to receiving the registration. Or this could be used where someone is making payments on a puppy, which happens sometimes.

It's in the bylaws under Registration Of Transfers Of Ownership

30.1 (b)
If the parties to such sale or disposition have agreed in writing that the dog shall be transferred into the name of the new owner and the new owner shall be provided with the certificate of registration only when certain specified obligations have been fulfilled by the new owner, then the seller shall not be obliged to transfer the dog or deliver the certificate to the new owner until the buyer has fulfilled all such obligations.
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  #20  
Old 12-15-2010, 05:48 PM
UniquityBelgians UniquityBelgians is offline
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I do not require my puppies to be spayed/neutered. However -- I also don't sell my puppies to homes that I feel are not going to be responsible enough to handle and contain an intact dog.

Honestly, I am a person who goes the natural route with most things. Altering, in my opinion is not natural. It doesn't mean I won't do it! My female, Visa, will be 8 next year. She'll be spayed. I don't want her to get pyometra, and I don't like how her hormones affect her behaviour when she in or close to being in heat. Plus it's a pain in the butt to have to watch her every two seconds, to keep panties on her, etc etc.
So I get to see it from both sides. I'm a person that normally doesn't agree with any messing around with hormones... But because of the hassle, it's soemthing I will still consider at a later age (when I feel it's safer).

So I can't argue one way or another. We haven't seen any major studies on the health of altered vs unaltered dogs. We only get to see points from the views of people who are fanatic about one or the other. Obviously there are benefits to both.. Who is right? I will alter my older dogs... And I don't mind if my puppy owners want to do the same.

However, it IS in my contract that the dog must be 18 months or older before being altered. This is because spaying/neutering cuts off the hormones responsible for closing the growth plates -- meaning they are open longer. This can cause a variety of issues with the bones/joints, and I don't want my young wild Belgian puppies getting hurt. :-) 18-24 months is the approximate age they close. My lines mature quickly, so I rounded down to 18 months.

I do offer one incentive -- if you do the minimum health tests (hips/elbows/eyes) and stick the 18 month neutering rule -- you get your health guarantee. If you don't stick to it, no health guarantee. I don't need people bringing me their overweight 8 year old Belgian whose been through several injuries and telling me it has hip dysplasia and they want a replacement puppy. I want OFA to rate the joints when the dog is under 3 years of age. This isn't because I'm some selfish cruel person who wants people to opt out and lose their health guarantee -- it's mostly because I want every single puppy in every litter health certified, so I can be confident that I am breeding healthy dogs, and I can continue with the same lines, etc. It helps me know what mistakes I am making, and what's working for me.
PLUS, the majority of my puppies go to performance homes -- and if the person is so crazy about agility or whatever it may be, I believe the dog needs to be x-rayed anyways. These are very pain tolerant dogs that will handle alot, and break down early if they're pushed beyond their physical limit.
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