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  #11  
Old 11-20-2010, 07:25 PM
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Maura, have you *ever* read actually anything by Kohler? HE IS *ALL ABOUT CORRECTIONS*. This is the basis the military trainers take for their dogs and it's an entire dimension above and beyond what the normal pet owner needs to be doing with their dogs. Please, stop talking until you have an actual idea of what the fsck you are talking about.

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There are some areas of protection that are going to incorporate what looks like harsh punishment (whacking the dog with an object) but done properly, it's building drive and the dog thinks it's all part of the game. I don't train in protection at all, but I've made a game out of whacking Sawyer in the face with his favorite toy, because it builds drive and proofs against idiots/kids doing stupid things to him.
If the part of training where they "whack the dog with an object" looks anything like harsh punishment, then it's being done completely wrong and you need to get you and your dog far away, fast.

The punishment that is used in protection training is stuff like, among other things, a collar pop or ecollar zap when the dog breaks his heel and runs for the sleeve, or collar pops/lifting the dog by the collar when he doesn't "out".
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  #12  
Old 11-20-2010, 07:31 PM
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I'm talking about when you get the dog to the part of training where they are happily and readily putting a full bite on a sleeve and hanging on for dear life. Oftentimes you will see the "target" have a soft object that they start whapping the dog with on the sides and such and by that point of training, it's all about proofing another level and isn't actually hurting the dog. But it's *only* for dogs that have achieved that level of training, it's not for a dog that isn't sure about what's going on.
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Old 11-20-2010, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Zoom View Post
I'm talking about when you get the dog to the part of training where they are happily and readily putting a full bite on a sleeve and hanging on for dear life. Oftentimes you will see the "target" have a soft object that they start whapping the dog with on the sides and such and by that point of training, it's all about proofing another level and isn't actually hurting the dog. But it's *only* for dogs that have achieved that level of training, it's not for a dog that isn't sure about what's going on.
I know exactly what you're talking about. But it shouldn't at all look like it's "harsh punishment". It should look like taps with a padded stick.
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Old 11-20-2010, 07:59 PM
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Obedience and tracking can and should be trained positively; while the protection aspect would simply be positively reinforced with the bite; that would be my idea anyway. The out (which is where you often see e-collars and prongs being used) could be trained and built upon using positive reinforcement with tugs at the very beginning.

I'm not sure how you would handle a dirty dog; but then again maybe positive reinforcement-trained dogs don't get dirty -- not sure.

I'm also not sure how you'd handle gaining intensity in the hold and bark exercise; but I think that is a judgement call anyway; so who knows.

I know the blind search is often taught using a hanging tree; nothing more positive than being rewarded in your search than by your favourite ball.

Interesting articles I found here; Schutzhund Village
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  #15  
Old 11-21-2010, 10:54 PM
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I have a question, has anyone on here that comments on Koehler actually ever read his books?
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:16 AM
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Thanks everyone for your insight, and thanks Charlie for that link. I have read her blog before on the Karen Pryor blog site, didn't realise she had another one.

I've read a bit of Koehler and don't fancy him at all. Honestly I've never used corrections and have never felt the need to use one- but then again I've never trained a working dog. I'm going to use my family's lab as an example here. My parents live on the bay and the lab's favourite thing is to chase after ducks going by. When she sees a duck, she's in her zone and you could be waving a hotdog in front of her face or be squeaking her favourite toy, and she wouldn't notice a thing. But she would always respond to her recall, no matter how close she was to catching that duck. Now, the question is, is a dog in prey drive akin to a dog in "aggression" drive doing bitework? That's what I found in the previous post from CorgiPower (http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t71467/#post992681) that really got me- that dogs in aggression drive aren't going to respond to reward based methods. If they don't, to what extent will they respond to a tug on a choke collar or pinch from a prong? I just don't believe that such a dog would be more responsive to a correction than something that they were conditioned to previously via positive reinforcement. I wouldn't want a dog who will only respond to a physical reprimand, and I don't think that's necessary to have when competing in Schutzhund. But again, I'm very new to the sport so I could be completely wrong.

I think I can do it, and I'll certainly try. Now it's all down to finding a good club (of course I found one I absolutely loved, along with a great breeder, only to find out I was relocating to the UK....back to square one!).
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
I have a question, has anyone on here that comments on Koehler actually ever read his books?
Yes. My first training mentor was a hard-core Koehler-type trainer, had just gotten done with a kennel full of military Mals. She had me read his books, practice his methods and I finally got sick of the "yank and crank". I was working with pet dogs, many of whom were very soft, others who just hadn't been taught to listen and I knew that wasn't the right style to use on these guys, but I wasn't given much leeway. I finally balked completely, started reading up on Patricia McConnell and the like, found a new mentor and learned how to work WITH the dog, instead of against/constantly fighting/having to escalate methods to get results.

I ended up helping to retrain a dog she had worked with, because after being subjected to enough pinch collar corrections, followed up with e-collar corrections after the dog shut down on the pinch, this particular dog would freeze and hit the ground when told to "come". It ended up being as simple as changing the cue and making it super, super fun, but still.

I'm not totally 100% against physical/collar corrections, though I feel the times they are required and necessary are so few and far in between that your average person doesn't need to be shown. It's just too easy for Joe Public to forget that they are training and just start doling out punishments for every little thing, instead of working to prevent that behavior.
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sallygoeswaltzing View Post
Now, the question is, is a dog in prey drive akin to a dog in "aggression" drive doing bitework? That's what I found in the previous post from CorgiPower (http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t71467/#post992681) that really got me- that dogs in aggression drive aren't going to respond to reward based methods. If they don't, to what extent will they respond to a tug on a choke collar or pinch from a prong? I just don't believe that such a dog would be more responsive to a correction than something that they were conditioned to previously via positive reinforcement. I wouldn't want a dog who will only respond to a physical reprimand, and I don't think that's necessary to have when competing in Schutzhund. But again, I'm very new to the sport so I could be completely wrong.
I am not entirely sure what "aggression drive" is, and I'm not sure that poster is on Chaz any more to tell us. But I do kinda have an idea of what she's referring to, simply because I've seen it, and I don't know what I'd call it.

But no, it's not akin to prey drive. As far as what the dog is thinking or will respond to or what drive or combination of drives he's in vary somewhat, but there is an ideal state that we try to get the dog into.

The thing about a "correction" at that point is that it's not a correction. It's an interrupter/attention getter. You can use positive motivation to train a dog to out and to come back to you, but when doing schutzhund, you want him to maintain focus on and drive for the helper while he heels with you, while he outs and guards, while he returns to you.
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  #19  
Old 11-23-2010, 12:44 PM
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Our positive only training member of our SchH club has a dirty biting dog who will come up the lead on the owner and has attacked two other handlers. Ask me and that dog needs some good old fashion correction in its life.

Everyones an expert until they hit a wall.


Personally I train in Schutzhund, Flyball, Agility, Obedience and Therapy work. I use primarily operant conditioning without a clicker, I use a marker word and the reward is either a bite or a treat depending on my dog. I do as well use correction in every venue when appropriate. I have corrected my dog for crossing over in flyball, I have corrected my dog for bailing off an A frame at the top, I have corrected my dog for biting out of frustration in schutzhund, I have corrected my dog for ignoring a stay command and I have corrected my dog for jumping on a patient in therapy work. I find correction a valid choice in every venue once a dog understands what is being asked of them. I have never met anyone (and i know some high titling die hard clicker trainers) who does not believe at a certain point a dog needs some correction.

That of course, is when things get subjective. My corrections are anywhere from a sound, a lead pop, a removal of the reward, a forced long down, or a repeat of an exercise. Anything the dog doesn't want to do is in fact a correction, it's a matter of subjective semantics in dog training when discussing corrections and it should be explained if it is to be discussed reasonably.

Do I kick my dog? Nope, not usually(but I have been known to kick to break up a fight). Do I scream at my dog? Nope, not usually (but I have been known to scream at them for pushing their limits). Do I make my dog listen even if they don't want to and demand for safety, you betcha.

Last edited by AdrianneIsabel; 11-23-2010 at 12:56 PM.
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  #20  
Old 11-23-2010, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoom View Post
It's just too easy for Joe Public to forget that they are training and just start doling out punishments for every little thing, instead of working to prevent that behavior.
I completely agree.

Sit means Sit is a huge training company here and sadly the dream team for the average dog owner. They shock the dog with forced reward (the reward being a lack of shock) and call it training. They claim the shock is actually an act of positive training, it amazes me the propaganda they can spew and people embrace.

As for aggressive drive I think y'all are referring to defense drive which is a valid drive but should only be reached for a assessed by an experienced and fair trainer and very experienced helper.

We used the smallest amount of defense drive to kick in my malinois bark in bite work and we're better for it. By using it I mean literally I held the lead and the helper (my TD) got down on all four, maintained eye contact and crept towards the dog. This made my male just uncomfortable enough he spit out a bark and was immediately rewarded with a bite. After that twice he caught on that bark=bite.

We have no reason to push a dog as far as tabling but that is the common method of building defense drive. I won't allow it with my dogs.

Last edited by AdrianneIsabel; 11-23-2010 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Because I apparently can't type coherently when tired.
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