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  #21  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:16 PM
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Yes it can. Dominance can't be used to base training on, if you think going thru a door first, or not letting them on your bed, or eating first, is going to solidify you as an "alpha" or top dog in your dogs eyes. Those are useful to train, just for manners and you train your dog, but they won't do much other than keep your dog off your bed or from running you over with exuberance to get out the door.

the owner might think of themselves as "dominant" by their definition, but the relationship isn't really affected by those acts. It's affected by how you might train those things, but the simple acts themselves don't really do anything in terms of dog/human relationships.

So in that regards, it's pretty useless.

But take the food situation. There are those, that have said there is no dominance or heirarchy between dogs or between dogs and people. I say there is, thru my own readings and my own observations. I don't think it's like those that base training on it, but it doesn't mean that some training can't come from it. I've seen dogs come in that want to eat who ever they can when they get here. You can't feed them or you will get eaten yourself.

But one person will go to give them food every day, and as long as the dog is aggressing, none is given, but on that day when they decide that the food is more important than whatever is motivating them to be that aggressive, and they allow that one person to come in and give them the food and they learn that this person controls their food, the bond is obvious, and it is plainly visible to me that this simple act has a profound effect on the dog's psyche. This effect seems to flow over all aspects of the relationship and further training.

That simple act does make me "dominant" by lay and behaviorist definitions, and it is very useful for further training and the relationship with your dog, or any dog. So, dominance can be useless and useful.
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  #22  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:26 PM
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That simple act does make me "dominant" by lay and behaviorist definitions, and it is very useful for further training and the relationship with your dog, or any dog. So, dominance can be useless and useful.
I don't see it as making you dominant. It makes you accepted as the bearer of good things. It makes you trustworthy.
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  #23  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:35 PM
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but that's how you want to see it. most lay people think of it as the one who controls things, I say controlling when something eats is dominant.

Behaviorists generally accpet it as meaning as having first crack at a limited resource. I have a highly desired and limited source of food, I can have it, and I can give it when I want to. The dog can't control that. That makes me dominant by behaviorsts standards as well. Of course it builds trust, it should. That's what makes it so useful in all aspects and makes it different than say just an act of walking thru a door first, which has no bearing on any relationship.
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Old 11-03-2010, 09:35 PM
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Or, at least, in control of resources, which is technically a dominant position.
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Old 11-03-2010, 09:38 PM
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And I think plenty of studies show that that isn't dominance theory...that's the dog realizing what behavior equals a reward and what behavior doesn't, and what person treats them right and is predictable and consistent.

Dominance theory training involves things like alpha rolling your dog, and physically punishing or restraining them to supposedly give them the idea that you are "dominant" and therefore need to be respected and obeyed. It doesn't, however, put emphasis on teaching a dog what behavior is acceptable and what isn't, so the dog doesn't really know HOW to obey and be respectful. It's also difficult to train a dog who is terrified of you.
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  #26  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:49 PM
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an act of walking thru a door first, which has no bearing on any relationship.
Well, I wish someone would explain that to Ares.

Because I had several dog fights (or almost fights) until I realized he was pissed about not being the first dog out the door and more than that, not being the first dog down the porch steps. That's not him being dominant though, it's him being a bully. But who went first still had bearing on his relationships with the other dogs.
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  #27  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by milos_mommy View Post
And I think plenty of studies show that that isn't dominance theory...that's the dog realizing what behavior equals a reward and what behavior doesn't, and what person treats them right and is predictable and consistent.


Dominance theory training involves things like alpha rolling your dog, and physically punishing or restraining them to supposedly give them the idea that you are "dominant" and therefore need to be respected and obeyed. It doesn't, however, put emphasis on teaching a dog what behavior is acceptable and what isn't, so the dog doesn't really know HOW to obey and be respectful. It's also difficult to train a dog who is terrified of you.
I"m not talking about "dominance theory". I've said that at least 4-5 times in this thread alone it is useless for training. I've said dominance and heirarchy DO exist between dogs, and have been told that those that are "educated" say otherwise.

I have given an example that fits both the behavioral and lay persons definition of dominance, and why one is useful for training and why one isn't.

and I have put this out there for you to read
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As you all know, some people think that just about all of our problems with dogs relate to “dominance” and advise owners to “be the alpha dog.” At the other end of the spectrum, some argue that “dominance” and even the concept of “social status” are completely irrelevant to a dog’s behavior, and that the terms should be struck from our vocabulary. I don’t agree with either extremes of the spectrum
Who said it?
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  #28  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
Who said it?
Patricia McConnell

The Concept Formerly Described as ***8220;Dominance***8221; TheOtherEndoftheLeash
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  #29  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:55 PM
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Well, I wish someone would explain that to Ares.

Because I had several dog fights (or almost fights) until I realized he was pissed about not being the first dog out the door and more than that, not being the first dog down the porch steps. That's not him being dominant though, it's him being a bully. But who went first still had bearing on his relationships with the other dogs.
and this is one of those things were it "could" be. if outside is the prize, and he thinks it's "his" and he wants to be first, it kind of fits what "dominance" is. I don't know what he's percieving at that time, maybe it's just the excitement of going outside, coupled by a tight space, and others and there's some displacement behavior going on, and redirecting that escalates to a fight, maybe he's just a ****, maybe it really is dominance to him in that situation
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Old 11-03-2010, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
and this is one of those things were it "could" be. if outside is the prize, and he thinks it's "his" and he wants to be first, it kind of fits what "dominance" is. I don't know what he's percieving at that time, maybe it's just the excitement of going outside, coupled by a tight space, and others and there's some displacement behavior going on, and redirecting that escalates to a fight, maybe he's just a ****, maybe it really is dominance to him in that situation
Yeah, but I've lived with him for a decade. He's a bully not an alpha. It wasn't that being outside was so valuable, it was simple a "ME!ME!ME!ME!" attitude. Like the playground bullies who push other kids off the slide so they can have it.

The point though wasn't what was behind the behavior as much as it was that who went out first did in fact affect the relationships.
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