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  #21  
Old 10-02-2005, 10:44 PM
g00ber g00ber is offline
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Originally Posted by BlackDog
What so many people don't understand is you shouldn't just take two random purebred dogs and expect whatever they produce to be great just for the fact they are purebred. You must evaluate the traits the two dogs have and strive to produce dogs that have temperament, health, and structure the closely to standard as possible. Otherwise what's really the point? You're just creating puppies. You can get purebred puppies in any humane society.
I could not agree with you more. Being a registered purebred dog doesn't make it worthy of breeding, nor does having good conformation or any one singular "good" point. A dog must be assessed over all and then a breeder must decide whether the dog is worthy of being bred from. Even when it comes to using dogs for breeding that do conform closely with the breed standard, it's not just about putting to good dogs together but about selecting two dogs that complement each other and I think that is where you see the difference between the good breeders and the great breeders.

I am not against dog shows but I do agree with a lot of what you said in your original post black dog (and I think you made some very valid points). The way some show dogs are treated is appauling and I don't condone it for a second. When I was showing I originally bought 2 dogs to show, one of them only ever went to 2 shows the other one was shown extensively. The reason for this was that the one that only went to two shows and hated it with a passion so I felt no need to put her through it, the second one which did a lot of showing kept going because he loved it... he loved being the centre of attention and loved going out on the weekends and seeing all of his dog show mates. I know that there are plenty exhibitors out there that care more about a ribbon than their dog and it is those people that I have a problem with, not the shows themselves. I also know that a lot of breeders put a lot of importance on "Champions" and ribbons when it comes to breeding but at the end of the day I think a good breeder should know the standard for their breed inside and out and therefore should know a good example of their breed when they see it, without having a judge tell them weather it is any good or not.
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  #22  
Old 10-03-2005, 12:49 AM
Manchesters
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Originally Posted by chloesowner
people these days. my dog is not the normal beagle color, and i still love her
What color is your beagle? Is it a red and white?
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  #23  
Old 10-03-2005, 12:57 AM
Manchesters
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I noticed the incorrect term "show standard" being used in these posts. There is no such thing. There are breed standards for each of the breeds. These standards are based on FUNCTIONALITY. They are all designed around what each different breed was bred to do.

Take the Dobe for instance......the standard calls for a depth of brisket, so their is plenty of room for heart and lungs. It calls for a square body dog, so the dog will be agile and able to turn on a dime and give 9 cents change. It calls for reach and drive, so the dog can cover the ground effortlessly. It gives precise angels for the shoulders and hips. Again to aid the agility of the dog.

Breeding and showing is not a beauty contest. Or at least it should not be. A good breeder will breed what they know is correct, and screw what the judges are putting up THIS year!!!!!!
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  #24  
Old 10-03-2005, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Manchesters
Breeding and showing is not a beauty contest. Or at least it should not be. A good breeder will breed what they know is correct, and screw what the judges are putting up THIS year!!!!!!
it is a "beauty contest" if people only breed for conformation and for nothing else - and sadly many do just that. a well balanced dog is not just proven in the show ring.

sticking with an example of a breed i'm very familiar with, what good does it do if you have a dachshund that has great conformation (and maybe an in the US much sought after "rare" color or pattern) but is an ill tempered little snot and a fear biter?

sadly it is ultimately up to the judges what is rewarded and what isn't, and as you said, a good breeder will do their best to improve the breed, even if the offspring doesn't conform to "popular demand". but these people generally also let their dogs prove themselves in performance events of the field they were bred for.
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  #25  
Old 10-03-2005, 01:55 AM
g00ber g00ber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchesters
I noticed the incorrect term "show standard" being used in these posts. There is no such thing.
It depends on what you mean when you are using the term... there is no such thing as a "show breed standard" but there is such a thing as a dog that is "of a high enough standard to shown". There are people here from different parts of the (or even different areas in the same country) and I think that sometimes this difference in locations can mean that some people use different terms to those used by people elsewhere.
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  #26  
Old 10-03-2005, 02:22 AM
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A dog either meets the breed standard or it does not. If it has 4 legs, a head and tail and no disqualifying faults, it is SHOW quality. Whether or not it is finishable is another story.
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  #27  
Old 10-03-2005, 02:26 AM
Manchesters
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordy
it is a "beauty contest" if people only breed for conformation and for nothing else - and sadly many do just that. a well balanced dog is not just proven in the show ring.

sticking with an example of a breed i'm very familiar with, what good does it do if you have a dachshund that has great conformation (and maybe an in the US much sought after "rare" color or pattern) but is an ill tempered little snot and a fear biter?

sadly it is ultimately up to the judges what is rewarded and what isn't, and as you said, a good breeder will do their best to improve the breed, even if the offspring doesn't conform to "popular demand". but these people generally also let their dogs prove themselves in performance events of the field they were bred for.
A GOOD breed, who is educated, responsible, and dedicated to the breed breeds for the sound mind in a sound body. And it is rather difficult to show a fear biting ill tempered dog in the ring. Dogs are excused for attempting to bite the judge or handler.

Hhhmmmmm, William Peterson just made a statement on CSI---"anyone who is great at something does it for their own approval.....not someone elses." Very true for outstanding breeders also.
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  #28  
Old 10-03-2005, 03:08 AM
g00ber g00ber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchesters
A dog either meets the breed standard or it does not. If it has 4 legs, a head and tail and no disqualifying faults, it is SHOW quality. Whether or not it is finishable is another story.
By that reasoning a dog can meet all of the above mentioned criteria yet not even be recognisable as the breed that it is (a neo could look like a bordeaux, a doberman could look like a rottie). Beside that you could end up with a whole list of traits that would be less than desirable but are not necessarily considered a "disqualifying fault" by the breed standard. I think the breed standard was put in place for a reason and that a dog should look like it is meant to look (without compromising other important factors like soundness, temperament, health... etc.)

I wish that it was as easy as "a dog either meets the standard or not", it is not like looking at a dog and saying it is a male or a female (which of course it is one or the other). No dog meets the breed standard to the letter, it is upto the responsible breeder to decide which dogs are close enough and which ones are not and of course these decisions vary greatly from breeder to breeder.
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  #29  
Old 10-03-2005, 09:45 AM
Manchesters
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00ber
By that reasoning a dog can meet all of the above mentioned criteria yet not even be recognisable as the breed that it is (a neo could look like a bordeaux, a doberman could look like a rottie). Beside that you could end up with a whole list of traits that would be less than desirable but are not necessarily considered a "disqualifying fault" by the breed standard. I think the breed standard was put in place for a reason and that a dog should look like it is meant to look (without compromising other important factors like soundness, temperament, health... etc.)

I wish that it was as easy as "a dog either meets the standard or not", it is not like looking at a dog and saying it is a male or a female (which of course it is one or the other). No dog meets the breed standard to the letter, it is upto the responsible breeder to decide which dogs are close enough and which ones are not and of course these decisions vary greatly from breeder to breeder.
The breed standard defines faults. Without the breed standard who would know that yellow eyes is a fault in some breeds, whereas it is desireable in Ibizan Hounds.

And you are right.........the breed standard is open for interpretation......but only as far as perhaps head type, coat, and a couple of other things. Look at the Chow for one.......pet Chows look like plucked coyotes. Open faces, long pointed noses, fine bone, no coat. But there again, there are breeders who get carried away and end up with so much scowl on the face you can't even see the eyes of the dog.

The same is true of the Doberman. At one time those being shown had what we called "bannana heads". Absolutely no fill under the eyes at all.

It is up to the breeder to present a good speciman of the breed to the judges. It has gotten to the point with some breeds that the judges have no clue of what a good looking speciman should look like. You can see this with the #1 Toy Manchester. He is a pile. And ya know what makes me an expert on that? Because they came to MY dogs to try to better what they had! And it worked. One of my grandsons is the #1 Toy Manchester in Canada. Something like 9 Best In Shows!!!!!! And he is an American champion also. And for the most part, with Toy Manchesters, championships do mean something. There aren't many "cheap champions" in that breed.

So, conjecture is fun, but until you have dogs shown and finished, it is only conjecture, and not something that can be explained. It has to be experienced. And every breeder will have different things they like better about their lines then about other breeders' lines. That is how come you can tell the difference between "lines" of many breeds.
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  #30  
Old 10-03-2005, 12:27 PM
BlackDog
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All interesting and valid points guys. This is where I was hoping this thread would go. It's so hard now a days to jump into the meat of dog breeding and showing without getting your head ripped off in the process. If I had more money to spend I'd rather get a ton of dog showing and breeding books then open a thread in a dog forum on these topics. It's like asking for a death sentance. But I'm poor and in college so I'll take what I can get.
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