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Old 08-31-2010, 01:36 AM
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Default A conflict of Morality: numbers

I was sitting down with a dear friend who shares my breed and we got into a discussion of numbers pertaining to breeding dogs. There is a conflict in my mind with establishing a line of dogs bearing my kennel name and the suggested numbers of dogs it takes to do so. One breeder I spoke with said if I bred normal size dogs that a minimum of ten litters a year was needed to establish a kennel name but for dogs who whelp as small of litters as mine fifteen to twenty would be more ideal to produce the number you would need to select a few really nice dogs. This breeder is a well established and well respected breeder of papillons and herself owns a kennel with at least 40 adult dogs. She owns most of her own studs sends her dogs out to campaign with handlers and has a lot of champions that bear her kennel name.

I gotta say I gagged on these numbers a bit. Then I decided I would do a quick non scientific survey of some of the top names in the toy fancy to see how many dogs they owned or listed as being sole owners on their websites. 48, 60ish, 110, 70, 35, 55, and a staggering 147. HOLY CRAP. Only two of these kennels would be even legal in my state due to anti puppymill laws. I have to wonder about temperament selection, quality of life, and how well any breeder could know a dog when they have so many and with the numbers being produced and readily eaten up by people within the fancy the impact of these kinds of operations on the breed as a whole.

Anyway, I guess that's my point of ponder and I wondered what you guys who have experience with successful bloodlines/breeders and breeding dogs think?
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Old 08-31-2010, 02:25 AM
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in order to establish the dogo, the nores martinez brothers had a fulltime staff of almost 2 DOZEN people to care for, train & work the very many dogs in their kennels. 6 of those were dedicated solely to feeding & & cleaning up after the dogs. think about that, how many dogs do you have to have to require 6 people to put in a FULL days work every day.
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Old 08-31-2010, 02:31 AM
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Do you think 1930's standards of care and animal breeding apply to today? It's not ment as a challenge but rather as a question since the role of dogs has changed rather dramatically in the modern day compared to before the 1970's. I guess I would question buying a dog even from great lines from a place where the dogs were in a kennel with 50-100 other dogs. It's not really the image people usually think of, I think ,when we think of the reputable breeder.

Last edited by Kat09Tails; 08-31-2010 at 02:48 AM.
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Old 08-31-2010, 02:46 AM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
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I think for one person, or even a couple or a small family to mange by themselves, those numbers are impossible. If you had a kennel and staff and everything else, maybe it'd work. But to me, what's the point? Sure, you're making lots of dogs, but what are you doing with them? There's no way you can compete or work them all yourself (hire handlers, yes). Why have dogs if you're not even the ones taking care of them? I know it's just a matter of opinion, but I would rather have a small kennel with a couple litters a year, tops, so I can care for my dogs myself, train them myself, and compete them myself. Who cares if I'd ever make a big name for myself - as long as I was breeding the kind of dog I wanted to breed, I'd be happy.

I also tend to think that smaller dogs can become overwhelming (number wise) faster because people think "Oh, they're little, let's get/breed more of them, there's plenty of room!" (not everyone, of course). To have the same number of large dogs would take MUCH more room, but really a large dog doesn't take all that much more care than a small dog.

I guess just go with what YOU want from your breed. You don't HAVE to have giant kennels if you're breeding the quality of dogs you want to breed. Personally, I'd choose a lesser known line over a super-popular one any day.
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Old 08-31-2010, 03:16 AM
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When establishing the dogo, they were creating an entirely new breed. To get that sort of genetic consistency yes you do need to work in high volume. I've done it with poultry. We hatched out over 300 birds a year, and then culled all but the top 10% that fit our standards. Of those, only the top 2-3% became breeders.

To make a line within a existing breed, it depends on what you are going for and how good you are at predicting the outcomes and making good matches. A lot of people in my breed say you can breed a litter, and hope maybe 2-3 come out show quality. IMHO, if your success rate is that low, you're doing a crappy job matching dogs up. My mentors have been very successful getting 80-100% success rates with their planned breedings, partly because they educate themselves and partly because they have a good eye for pairings that work.
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Old 08-31-2010, 11:14 AM
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What Romy said.

There is no reason for that many dogs. It sounds like a glorified puppy mill IMHO.

If you are breeding your own line you do not need that many dogs. You start out with 1 -3 females and pick males from other breeders that suit the type of dogs your breeding.

Of course I know your dogs are all fully health tested before breeding
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Old 08-31-2010, 11:28 AM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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depends what your goals are, but i'd love to come across a breeder getting 80% success rates regularly. I guess your standards will dictate as well what's considered success.

it's the law of averages, dog breeding doesn't escape them either, no matter how good you think you are. You can definitely stack the deck in your favor, but it's still messy.

i know working kennels that have a good reputation and have lots of successful dogs, have breds lots and lots and lots of dogs.
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Old 08-31-2010, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
depends what your goals are, but i'd love to come across a breeder getting 80% success rates regularly. I guess your standards will dictate as well what's considered success.
I know wich breeder Romy is thinking about, Im pretty sure anyways. They have stunning dogs. Thier standard is BIS and BISS winning dogs, and Am/Can Ch's.

I also know a Borzoi breeder who easily has a 80% sucsess rate. Both in Am and Can as well as germany.

I can think of many Doberman, Beagle, Aussie, Daxie, Whippet, ect.. breeder that have the same.
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Old 08-31-2010, 02:12 PM
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Just because they're the owner doesn't mean the dog lives with them.

But yea, those numbers are quite staggering and unnecessary.
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Old 08-31-2010, 02:37 PM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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ok, I gotta know who these breeders are
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