Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog Training Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-25-2010, 01:20 PM
StillandSilent StillandSilent is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,178
Default Confused about the Clicker

Grimm was previously trained, using force and a choke chain, before I got him. Since most of his issues were social, I never really got into using the clicker with him.

Since his little behavior regression, we're going back to basics, this time with the clicker instead of force. He really seems to like it, but I'm confused about "stay"

How do I click him? Do I do it before the release word, or after?
__________________

Booty Dancing In Heaven 10/13/03-9/15/12
As much as I try to be one of those easygoing 'spread your wings and fly' types, I just can't stop trying to burst people into flames with my mind.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-25-2010, 01:27 PM
CaliTerp07's Avatar
CaliTerp07 CaliTerp07 is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 7,637
Default

Before! At first, put him in a sit or a down, tell him to stay, and click after a few seconds (before he has a chance to get up and mess up). Add a few seconds each time. You always want to click while he is doing the behavior you're asking for. If you release him and then click, he's being rewarded for getting up, not staying.
__________________


Lucyfur CA O-NAC O-NCC S-NJC O-TNO S-TGN S-WVN HPN SG
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-25-2010, 01:44 PM
StillandSilent StillandSilent is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,178
Default

So I get the stay behavior solid and then add a release word? That does make sense.

My new neighbor asked me yesterday if I ever heard strange clicking noises coming from the walls. She thought there was a wiring problem! We both cracked up when I had to admit that I was the one making that noise.
__________________

Booty Dancing In Heaven 10/13/03-9/15/12
As much as I try to be one of those easygoing 'spread your wings and fly' types, I just can't stop trying to burst people into flames with my mind.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-25-2010, 01:55 PM
CaliTerp07's Avatar
CaliTerp07 CaliTerp07 is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 7,637
Default

Yeah, I wouldn't work on a release until he understands that stay means "don't move".

I actually taught stay to Lucy using her dinner, because she's crazy about her food bowl. I made her sit on her bed, told her "wait" and set her food dish down. If she moved, I picked the bowl back up, said "ah-ah", and put her back on her bed. It only took a couple days before she had that rock solid. Now, I can put her in a stay, set her food dish down, go do dishes and come back a few minutes later and she'll still be sitting there. When I say, "Okay!" she'll come FLYING across the room to get her food!

For start line stays at agility, I reward like mad. It's waaaaaay harder for Lucy to sit still for 20 seconds with all the excitement than it is for her to take a jump. I'll put her in a stay, walk 2 feet away, come back and give her a treat. Repeat, repeat, repeat (going a little further sometimes). She actually gets less of a reward for starting the course when I tell her to, because that's so much easier for her. I'm working to make "stay" super exciting for her.
__________________


Lucyfur CA O-NAC O-NCC S-NJC O-TNO S-TGN S-WVN HPN SG
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-25-2010, 03:05 PM
Southpaw's Avatar
Southpaw Southpaw is offline
orange iguanas.
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 7,015
Default

And, when you're working on distance--don't click until you've already walked back up to him. I actually did it the opposite way with Juno (I'd click when I was however many feet away, and then walk back to her and give the reward) and it worked fine, but a lot of dogs would probably get up after hearing the click.

I worked on the release word at the same time. I'd just clap my hands and walk away while telling her "okay!" I still don't think she really understand the concept of the release word lol but I still wanted her to get the idea that she needs to remain staying until given some form of further instruction.
__________________
And if all of it is for naught, well at least I took a shot

Juno 2009 :: Happy 2000 :: Lucy 2006 :: Cajun 2013
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-25-2010, 04:05 PM
stardogs stardogs is offline
Behavior Nerd
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NC
Posts: 4,480
Default

Yes remember that the click generally means that the dog has met your criteria and is now free to get up and move.

I do the same gradually extending time routine mentioned above but with two other parts added in: I don't add a separate stay cue since I want my dogs to have a sit or down stay implied when I give the sit or down cue *and* I will occasionally throw in an "easy" rep when the dog has been doing well with the increasing increments, just to keep things more interesting.
__________________
Erin, Ziva, Kestrel, Aerten, and Snipe
Always in our hearts: The Amazing Maggie Mae


Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-25-2010, 07:01 PM
Doberluv's Avatar
Doberluv Doberluv is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: western Wa
Posts: 21,912
Default

I would get that release word working right away. It is important that he regularly hears this release word just prior to getting up or breaking the stay. It's part and parcel of the deal. Break your stay down into three parts; duration, distance and distractions. When you're working on one part or criteria, relax the others. For instance, start out with durataion. No distance and no distractions. Go in a boring room and stand right smack in front of him. Have him sit for just a second, click/treat, release quickly. Get that release word in double quick before he screws it up. LOL....before he gets a chance to rise or break the stay. He'll get so it's habit for him to have getting up from the stay preceeded by the release word. It will help him learn to wait for the release word.

Don't start using your verbal cue until he's getting this pretty regular. Just get the behavior. (even if he has learned it before. If he's not so good at it, you're liable to louse up the cue) So, save it till he's really getting onto the game so he doesn't miss the association between the cue and the behavior.

Work on your duration gradually, only increasing it as he succeeds. Then work on distance and relax the duration. Step back a step and immediately return to him. Then two steps back and immediately return. When you come back to him, click/treat and release. Gradually add to the distance. If you forget to use your release word or don't get it in there quick enough and he breaks the stay, he just lost an opportunity for reinforcement. No punishment. Just start over.

Then when he's getting onto that, you can then add the two together, starting out on easy street and gradually adding pressure.... or you can throw in some mild distractions and stay with duration or distance training only. It doesn't much matter what order you do it in, just as long as you make it easy for him to build reinforceable responses. So, if you decide to throw in some distractions, it's best to relax the other criteria (distance from you...and duration of the stay)for a bit.

The click comes at the end of the behavior. So, as you build duration very gradually, you'll be clicking at the end of your pre-determined number of seconds. As he gets pretty decent at this stay business, you can start clicking NOT when you're right in front of him, but from a distance and rush in and give him the treat. You will want to mix things up so that stay doesn't just mean stay because you're standing right in front of him. You'll want to turn sideways, stand in different positions from what you usually do. You can sit in a chair and ask for a stay. You can squat and ask for a stay. Have him vary HIS positions too...sometimes lying down and staying, sitting, standing. Stop when you're just walking around the yard and ask quickly for a stay right where he is. Mix things up so the stay gets on stimulus control. Try to gradually start standing a little differently asap because once he gets it in his mind that you're always, always standing a certain way, that becomes part of the cue and you don't want that. You want stay to be singled out from everything else so it will mean stay no matter what else is going on.

But imo, the sequence should be: Correct response (make it VERY easy to comply), click, treat and release. (gradually raise the part of the stay you're working on and then add the criteria together)Try to avoid exciteable wild praise, as this is likely to make him break the stay before you've gotten your release word in. You can save that for later. The click and treat is sufficient reinforcer.
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Doberluv; 08-25-2010 at 07:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-25-2010, 07:28 PM
Maura Maura is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Mitten State
Posts: 630
Default

I use two different stays. One means stay put until I come back to you. The other means stay until I release you or give you another direction (I may be on the other side of the pasture.)
__________________
Forever Home: A Guide to ReHoming the Rescued Dog, from Wild Rose Press www.foreverhomebook.net
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-25-2010, 07:48 PM
Doberluv's Avatar
Doberluv Doberluv is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: western Wa
Posts: 21,912
Default

That's a good way Maura...to make two separate cues.

With the Op, in the beginning, to really ensure really reliable, concrete stay, I recommend that you always return to your dog...almost always anyhow. Don't call your dog to come until he is absolutely rock solid, has been doing this for a long time..... and then only one out of twenty stays should you call him. What I did is: if I thought I might want to call my dog over to me after he stayed, I used a different cue...."wait." And saved "stay" for stay no matter what...until I come to you. In fact, with Lyric, I got him to stay by default so I didn't give him a noticeable cue. Wherever I left him, when I'd lead out with my right foot, he stayed automatically. But that took some time and some gradual fading of my cue. I don't do so much with my Chi's.
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-25-2010, 09:27 PM
Linds's Avatar
Linds Linds is offline
Twin 2
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,714
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
You will want to mix things up so that stay doesn't just mean stay because you're standing right in front of him. You'll want to turn sideways, stand in different positions from what you usually do. You can sit in a chair and ask for a stay. You can squat and ask for a stay. Have him vary HIS positions too...sometimes lying down and staying, sitting, standing. Stop when you're just walking around the yard and ask quickly for a stay right where he is.
I just wanted to say I think this right here is great advice! I mean, all of it was right on, but this is something I know I forget about a lot and have to remind myself to do. It's so easy to get in the habit of just standing there in front of them

And if you ever want a stand stay I would work that in early, not to say you can't do it later on, just that I find that to be one of the harder ideas to get through to the dog. That standing is a position just like sit and you have to keep that position.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:54 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site