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  #41  
Old 07-25-2010, 11:47 AM
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I'm not opposed to using a crate, and I will always have a crate on hand, but Chloe was never crate trained. We just gated her off in the laundry room an then later extended her area to the laundry room/back hallway when we were gone, or we'd kennel her outside. She is 110% reliable in the house and we now just leave her loose whenever we are gone. At night when she was a pup I gated her off in the little walkway area by my bed and now she has full run of my room at night.

The way we use crates in house training is if the puppy can't be watched, the puppy is crated. In Chloe's case, gating her off in the back hallway worked just as well and she was much more content having more space (but it was still limited enough for her kennel instinct to kick in and her not want to soil it).

If I had a dog that wasn't reliable, I'd definitally crate it. Or ex-pen it, or contain it safely in some manner.

*And, every single dog I have, and have had, was calm while in a crate. Chloe does bark at first, but that is when she is crated and there are no people around. She shuts up after awhile and we found that when I take her to the groomers, if we put her in a front kennel where she can still see people she is quiet.

And I don't use a clicker when I train...but I do use a verbal marker. I've tried using a clicker and I end up just saying "Yes!" anyways, often more on time than me clicking because I have to fumble for the clicker. ROFL So my marks went something like "Ye-" *click* "-s!" Old habits die hard, and Chloe does just fine with a "yes" marker. I can think of a few situations were a clicker would be a bit more handy, so I may use it then, but I definitally am not apt enough with it to use it all of the time. I also lure/reward and give collar corrections...but often in tandem with marking.
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  #42  
Old 07-25-2010, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllieMackie View Post
Not quite sure the point of the post, because it's a common knowledge that Chazzers are mostly of the opinions that crates and clickers are both valuable tools,.
I honestly NEVER picked this up on chaz. I have been here a long time and didn't realize so many people clicker trained. Same could go for Malory.

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  #43  
Old 07-25-2010, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by PixieSticksandTricks View Post
I honestly NEVER picked this up on chaz. I have been here a long time and didn't realize so many people clicker trained. Same could go for Malory.

Fair enough. I see both being encouraged a lot, but I don't ever see them as the be-all-end-all.

For me, I clicker train soemtimes when teaching new behaviours. I don't NEED to, but I personally see it as a useful tool. Finn picks up behaviours faster with the clicker, and I enjoy teaching him parlor tricks and such on rainy days. Do I need a clicker? Heck no. He'd learn fine without it (and he does - I don't always use it) but it's handy.

Crates aren't for every dog. Not every dog needs them. Finn does, and he is out of the crate whenever I am home. He enjoys quiet time in his crate, and when I need him away for a little while, it's no big deal to tell him to "go to bed" for some control. He'll also be doing dog sports, so it's important to me that he's very comfortable in his crate. But again, not every dog needs them.
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  #44  
Old 07-25-2010, 11:58 AM
JessLough JessLough is offline
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Originally Posted by Linds View Post
So while some of you who say you don't "clicker train" probably do "marker train"
The question was about clicker training. Not about marker training. They are both different, IMO. Some dogs are fine with clickers, some need to hear their person verbally letting them know they did the right thing.
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  #45  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:09 PM
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I have mentioned it in a couple places, and things get switched onto how I must not be a very good owner/trainer and I must start both.
I'd be curious who said something like that and where it was said.

Those things are tools that a lot of people find helpful. They're tools that weren't always around. Do you think people here think all dog owners in the past couldn't train their dogs and weren't good dog owners?
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  #46  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JessLough View Post
The question was about clicker training. Not about marker training. They are both different, IMO. Some dogs are fine with clickers, some need to hear their person verbally letting them know they did the right thing.
Well, I didn't really think there was a direct question about clickers, just everyone kinda talking about them, but ok.

I am curious why you think marker training and clicker training are that different? Different tool, same concept in my head. And I do have a dog that I can't use a clicker with, she HATES them and gets very distressed when one is used with her so I use a voice marker with her instead

Assuming that the clicker is being used in the same capacity as it's being discussed in this thread then the way I have it in my head is that a marker isn't always a clicker but a clicker is almost always a marker.

But anyways, here's the real problem with clicker training your dogs-

YouTube - Calypso Clicking

You get a parrot that loves the sound and messes with the dogs head
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  #47  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:32 PM
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ROFLOL!!!! Linds, that parrot is amazing. I can see how that could definitely mess with a dog's head and make the clicker lose it's value. Too funny!!!!

Yeah, using a clicker, a whistle, a word, a clap....it doesn't matter. When one consistent thing happens, something that has no inherent value in itself, right before something very valuable happens, that association is made. The clicker (or whatever) then comes to have value. I liken it to a paycheck. A paycheck is nothing more than a piece of paper with ink on it....nothing valuable about that. But it represents the stuff you need to live on...groceries, a roof over your head. When you get your paycheck, you say, "Woooo hoooo!" LOL. The pay check is the conditioned reinforcer. The stuff you buy is the primary reinforcer for the work you did all week.

I too suspect that people are using some kind of marker most of the time and just don't realize it. But if it's not consistent or not the same thing, the dog likely won't make a very good association. He might. He might know that "Yes" and "good" and "woo hoo" all mean a treat is coming. LOL. It's just more concise to use the same thing. Plus, the sharp, distinct sound of the clicker is suppose to register quicker in the brain than words, talking etc.
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  #48  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linds View Post
I am curious why you think marker training and clicker training are that different? Different tool, same concept in my head. And I do have a dog that I can't use a clicker with, she HATES them and gets very distressed when one is used with her so I use a voice marker with her instead
That's pretty much it. For some people it's also easier to hit a clicker then verbally mark at the right time, or they prefer the consistent sound that the click makes as opposed to variances in their own voice due to tone, emotion etc. Neither is wrong, both are very effective (I sometimes use clicker, sometimes voice, both work very well) but they are simply different variations on the same concept.

Some dogs don't like the clicker noise, and some on the other side of the spectrum respond better to a constant click sound than a voice reinforcer. Just depends.
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  #49  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
ROFLOL!!!! Linds, that parrot is amazing. I can see how that could definitely mess with a dog's head and make the clicker lose it's value. Too funny!!!!
I think it really did in the beginning. He picked it up when I brought Kaylee home and taught her to sit using the clicker in the living room and for a while every time he would click she would look for food

Luckily, by now it's become the Bird Clicker and the Food Clicker. Calypso does it whenever he wants attention or when you feed or change his water, or he just wants to hear it himself. In fact, he's doing it right now, makes me laugh every time and it's a whole lot more pleasant than their normal screech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
He might know that "Yes" and "good" and "woo hoo" all mean a treat is coming. LOL. It's just more concise to use the same thing. Plus, the sharp, distinct sound of the clicker is suppose to register quicker in the brain than words, talking etc.
Exactly, I loaded both the click and "Yes" for Traveler because I know there are going to be a good amount of times I don't have a clicker on me and need to mark something. But, I say yes a whole lot during the day for different things and while it's not as distinct as the "Yes!" you did the right thing, it's still being said with no reward then to back it up.

But that click, it can be heard over other sounds, its harder to click when you don't mean it, and it's not something you run into everyday unless you live at my house with the clicker parrot. So while Yes works for us I have found that the clicker is much clearer and we communicate easier with it.

As I said before, whatever works for you and your dog, I was just pointing out that it's all marker training, the tool that's used is just different
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  #50  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linds View Post

I am curious why you think marker training and clicker training are that different? Different tool, same concept in my head. And I do have a dog that I can't use a clicker with, she HATES them and gets very distressed when one is used with her so I use a voice marker with her instead


You get a parrot that loves the sound and messes with the dogs head
The way I see it. This is how they are different.

Clicker training- you have to keep this stupid plastic thing with you at almost all times (or atleast in the begining). Sorry but I don't want to depend on something I can easily lose and then im up crap creek with a dog who only responds or responds well to a clicker. No thank you.

Vocal marks- well it is your voice. Your always going to have it unless you get a nasty cold or become mute. But I know even when I can barely squeak out commands my dogs understand and follow them. And the chances of me becoming mute are slim to none.

I feel much better knowing that I don't need to depend on a clicker to get my dogs to listen to obedience commands, show off tricks, or work on training in general.

I also don't have to spend money on some little peice of plastic and metal (that makes a god awful sound in my opinion) that I know I would definately continue to lose and continue to have to buy. Yes I know they are cheap but hey im saving money no matter how small an amount.
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