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  #31  
Old 07-23-2010, 10:51 AM
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adojrts adojrts is offline
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Originally Posted by Renee750il View Post
You know, a good start might be to get a high powered water gun . . . And blast the neighbor every time she starts screaming at the dog
Best advice given so far

Seriously, why don't you take up donations, do research on good training places in your area, and approach the owner with a gift certificate for training? Then she can learn and maybe she'll let you come with her to learn the newer methods too.

Buy ear plugs and use them, if that was her kids and she was yelling but not abusing the kids you would have no grounds to interfer, so why is it ok with her dog??

Nobody said that the older more traditional methods didn't work, the problem was and remains that the fall out from the methods can be huge. You might be surprised to learn that many of us here that are opposed to these methods are the same people that are in fact cross over trainers. Meaning we've been there, done that and learned that there are better more humane methods based on science and proven learning theory.
Kinda like the ex-smoker that chirps the most about not smoking??
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  #32  
Old 07-23-2010, 12:18 PM
Robbie_D Robbie_D is offline
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Post Correcting an error in my text in a previous post

My correction is marked by red font

She THINKS she is doing the right thing by screaming "Bad dog! Get in the house!" at the dog, like most dog owners who never thought about training a dog.
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  #33  
Old 07-23-2010, 01:48 PM
Robbie_D Robbie_D is offline
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Post An episode of my soap opera.

Hi,

Yea a water gun. Hmmm.

They don't really like me very much as i am "a maudit bloke who 'complains' about harmless, little, barking dogs" in their opinion.
See, i live in Montreal, Quebec. So, there are political languages barriers, too, which add to any pre-existant discomfort caused by barking dogs. They are all French who barely speak English and i am the other way around with French. So, clear communication is...lacking, sometimes.
So, me, pointing a water gun at her dog would be seen as a threat of some kind, afterall, javex could be in the water gun.

I would love to point a water gun at her, though, as you suggest, only thing is, we are not all that friendly due to how i had to handle the barking Maltese problem directly downstairs from me (which is her neighbor on the bottom flat who shares the fence that separates the two yards) a couple of summers ago. Everyone complained by rolling their eyes, or admitting that "that Maltese dog does bark too much", whenever the Maltese would bark - but no one wanted to say anything about it to the owners. When everyone finally expressed their dislike about the barking, to me, I WENT down with smiles and doggy suggestions about maybe covering the fence so the dog can't see outside the yard, i suggested the citronella coller, shaking a can of coins to creat noise, a water pistol, They kept refusing all suggestions, and maintained that their dog is unstoppable. Well, that continued until all hell broke loose when they refused to quiet their dog.
To top it off. When i confronted the maltese owner, i asked openly for support from the other silent complaining neighbors (who are all French, by the way) while trying to explain that no one wantes to listen to her dog. THEY Guess what?...ALL DENIED IT, and said, "The barking doesn't bother me.", making me look the ONLY ONE who disliked the barking. That's how they have more entertainment, the drunken drug users. Another neighbor told me later that she just didn't want to get involved (she's the yorkie owner who used to roll her eyes, too, each time the maltese barked). Some support!

It was a war, and i won, and they (the maltese owners) were/are poor losers, and me being English and them being French with these yappy dogs who are all mature dogs, it makes it more stressful. Their disliking me so much is caused mostly by the landlord's female, (French) secretary who also owns a barking toy breed. When i asked her to send a reminder of the house rules to the maltese owners about barking dogs not being allowed, she, instead, sent a highly threatening letter to the maltese owners on my behalf. She caused so much trouble and then turned it around, and ignored my complaint and then tried to evict me. She was so disapproving of me complaining about the Maltese barking, she actually tried to get me evicted. She took it upon herself to stand behind the Maltese owners and ignore the house rules, which were set out by the landlord, himself, and tried to make me look like I WAS the bad tenant by accusing me of doing laundry all night long, my smoke detector going off several times a night, moving furniture after midnight, dropping heavy things on the floor all day and night, even being excessively rude and impolite to all the other tenants. She even told the landlord that i was complaining about the silent-barking yorkie who had its vocal cords cut - she sent all this to the rental board, too, and lodged a complaint against me, suggesting to them they be allowed to evict me. It was all lies, of course, i am in bed most nights by 11 or 12.

All i did do was, one day, after the police were called and and the secretary was complained to and no one wanted to do anything) was to bang a 25lbs barebell on the floor nonstop really hard for about 2 whole minutes while SCREAMING in French at the floor "DO YOU UNDERSTAND, NOW?? SHUT UP YOUR DOG!!" after that the secratery tried to evict me.

When i later spoke to the landlord, himself, and showed him all her complaints and how false they were and told him that "I HAVE HIRED A LAWYER now because of your secretary." The dog suddenly stopped barking.
BUT it still barks on occasion...just not as much. They are another dimwit owner whose dog has tuned them out.
It has gotten better, though, even though i feel as though they are talking at the gate, telling each other, "He better not start complaining again because i'll....".

I am definately on the outside of the neighbor box, here. Typical stuff here in Montreal, Quebec between the French and English folks.
I was really nice at first, too, to the Maltese owners for the first year and a half. I was being really nice with them.

Now, they won't even look at me, and if they do, it's only to flash their raised eyebrows up to my balcony and grimace because I MADE THEM stop their little 10 year old yapper from yapping. What a suprise for them to learn that all their lame excuses that they have been using on their previous neighbors for years, about how they can't stop their dog from barking, didn't work on me. I told her that her dog suffers from separation anxiety and needs her in the yard with her dog, she refused to do that. She ended up having to take my advice anyway and now she disgruntledly sits with her dog in the yard when she puts it out to do its pissness. They used to just put their dog out in the back yard and just close their kitchen door so they wouldn't have to hear their own dog barking. Well, that's all stopped now.

At the time, which was the latest, last summer, the shih tzu was in the house all day when the owner worked, so i never really cared if it barked in her house, i figured that someone else would complain, and someone did. But now it's barking outside, and i can't keep the attitude that its barking does not bug me, mainly because now, the Maltese owner is thinking," Well, if the shih zu is allowed to bark all day, my maltese should be allowed to bark a little, also."
And the "little" will get bigger and bigger as time passes by until it's like a dog kennel down there with frantically barking dogs and owners all shouting over it to be heard.
See the situation? It's not an easy one.

However, the other neighbors all silently enjoy the new peace in the yards, since the maltese stopped barking. They're letting the shih tzu bark to see what i will do, i am sure. They don't want to complain because that would make the French people appear to be agreeing with the "maudit Anglais" (AKA, me).

Getting money together for HER to get her dog trained is why i am offering to do it for free. No one will want to dish out cash, c'mon they have beer and drugs to buy. Getting the dog trained means that will stop the ensuing arguments that might arise due to the shih tzu now barking as much as the Maltese used to do. Why would THEY pay for that?! They liked all of that Maltese drama, i am trying to avoid more of the same by nicely offering to train the shih tzu. With all that in mind, can you just imagine me using Koehler's methods in this touchy situation.


Robbie_d

P.S.
Yes, Montreal is a charming, European-like city to visit, and we have healtlh care and all the other social services, and sexy women (and men, too, i suppose), but if you don't speak French, i would not suggest living here.

Last edited by Robbie_D; 07-23-2010 at 02:22 PM. Reason: Correcting spelling errors and stuff.
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  #34  
Old 07-23-2010, 02:29 PM
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  #35  
Old 07-23-2010, 03:35 PM
Robbie_D Robbie_D is offline
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Arrow Just to add a note to my previous post in this thread.

....the shih tzu owner put herself in the middle of me and the maltese owner, once...just once...when the first, BIG, loud confrontation with the maltese owner happened - when my smiles were gone and the suggestions, i first made, became strong demands.
The shih tzu owner tried to defend her neighbor's maltese because she knew that she also has a problem barking dog. So, maybe, now, she thinks she is "next" on my "hit-list".
So, there is that to consider. lol

How's the ? Got 'nuff butter?
It gets better.

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  #36  
Old 07-23-2010, 04:33 PM
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It's the only method i ever knew of, so i guess i need to re-learn other methods, which i am not opposed to learning and doing.
Funny....that was not the impression I got from the post where you responded to my post. I posted an offer to help... a legitimate, polite post. I was genuinely trying to help like I always do on here. And that's when I felt attacked and criticized for simply trying to help show some good ways to train. Hmmmm...

Everyone, just look at these two following posts, pretty pleeeeeze?….Mine with my opinion about Koehler and some recommendations for books and some links. (like we do all the time on here and most people appreciate those links because they’re educational and helpful) Where was I rude here? Then look at his post. Nothing but smart ass, rude, sardonic and asinine...mocking my 15,000 posts and saying something about my living on the forum. (huh?) I've accumulated that many posts since 2004. Why should someone attack someone for enjoying being on a forum and implying that I don't have a life otherwise?

First he indicates that he doesn’t want to know about positive methods, doesn't appreciate the advice, doesn‘t want to hear what‘s wrong with punishment based training, then he writes what is quoted above. Huh? Do you wonder why I got snarky afterward and thought he was a troll...here to make jabs and stir up trouble?

Quote:
My post:
I read Koehler's book way back in the early 80's I think it was. His long line recall advice was to let the dog run out to the end of the line and let him flip over backward since he didn't come when called. I don't care if anyone misinterprets his methods or goes by the book. His methods are out-dated and they suck. Cesar Milan isn't as blatant or as violent as Koehler, but he's still in the same category as far as I'm concerned. Coerce, intimidate, dominante (so the dog won't take over your world) Ha! Squealch the dog into submission. Sick stuff! And stuff that has been proven has nothing to do with how dogs are. Yes, proven.

So, advice....first read what you can (those links and if you want more, just ask) and get a handle a little bit on the concepts of operant and classical conditioning...learning theory, behavior. It won't take long to get some of the gist of things. When you get some understanding of it, you'll find you can apply it to all kinds of things. You can still ask questions here too. Lots of people can offer really good ideas for all kinds of dog related issues. But I would say some tweaking of the mind set first might be more helpful than simply offering some methods without your understanding what modern trainers are doing and what is now known about how dogs think and learn.

Welcome, btw. Let us know what you think after you read through those links.


Quote:
Robbie's post

Hi,
Thanks to those who've responded, so far, and i am sorry if your answers are not addressing my question to my satisfaction. It seems i am getting advice on which books to burn, and told how bad and outdated Koehler's Method is.

At the time of publication of Koehler's book(s) literally over 15,000 dogs were trained using the method. As i read the credentials Koehler had, well it seems he did know dogs enough to obtain the status he obtained - not just any fool is accepted to train for Walt Disney studios, the USA military, the K-9 Corps, and maybe more that i don't know of. So to say that the man was incapable of knowing dogs or how they are, is silly, in my opinion.
True, many methods have been developed over the years by other people who use more intelligent approaches. I've never read any of them. And yes, Koehler's method is rather harsh, i am not denying that. I bought one book years ago, the Koehler book, and i've used his methods while people gasped at what i was doing. However, people always admired how well the dogs were conditioned to behave and were always considered to be well adapted. The good thing about his methods is the dog learns fast. Animals in the wild nature learn the hard way, too, and that's called, nature. I wonder how many wild animals are given treats and such to learn things. Maybe we could all go hunt down the mothers of bear cubs, or whatever animal, and explain the more subtle ways of teaching. Yes i am being a bit sarcastic, i didn't start off that way in here.
I am not here to discuss, defend, or bash the Koehler or any other method, even though it seems that way, thanks to fuss about Koehler in this thread. And i am certainly NOT here to argue, so if you wish to argue, lay off, please! I've seen the other threads about Koehler. If i want to discuss any of that, i can post in those Koehler threads.

I am, also, not really asking what any one thinks of the Koehler Method. I have stated that many people are against it - so i am ***65532;already aware of how people feel about it. I am also aware that there are probably hundreds of other training authors out there all claiming to be more subtle, gentle, smart, scientific, compassionate, etc etc.
I've, also, stated how i feel about the Koeler Method having had used it, myself, successfully, years ago.
I've never agitated a military or police dog. I just used the basic obediance methods.

The point of my being here is not to be told to burn books and go read a library of other books and a list of internet links. If i wanted to know what the current, modern trainers are doing with dogs these days, i'm certain i would have asked that question.
However, I am asking only about training a neighbor's 7 year old, male, shih tzu dog to stop charging a fence. Instead of telling me to read a list of books and links and then get back to you, why not just offer some advice about the question i've asked? And if you can't, or choose not to, address the question, why even bother responding at all?!
I'm sorry if i sound too...whatever word best describes the tone of this post.
I feel that this thread has been hijacked into a "We all hate Koehler and those who've used his method" thread.
If this is all too much to handle, maybe the moderator can step in and moderate this situation or perhaps just delete my account if that will make the one or two unhappy poster(s) happy.I've noted the suggested material and i've poked around on youtube to see a few videos about the authors who were suggested to me. Great. Which one discusses breaking a 7 years old shih tzu's habit of fence charging?

This post is not an invitation for a spitting match, thank you.
To be honest, doberluv's posts are not helpful in regards to my original question. S/he offers great advice for someone looking for lessons on new methods of dog training, and that's not what i asked for help with.
It seems the mere mention of Koehler's name angers that particular poster as well as others, perhaps.
So, please, if you want to be helpful, fine, address the question. If you choose to preach to me and treat me like a bit of a moron, i think the moderator should step in and moderate.

Thanks for reading, and i hope i didn't **** anyone off.
If i did **** someone off, well then that person was just waiting to be pissed off. My advice is to THAT person would be to log off for a few days, weeks or months and stop living on an internet forum. I haven't read all 15,000 posts, iv'e read two to me that were rather off topic.
Robbie_d

The whole thing is laden with rude, aggressive, ungrateful remarks. I simply gave my opinion on Koehler and proceded to offer helpful links, which 99% of people receive with appreciation and word of thanks....even if they don't wind up using them. It surprises me that anyone here would continue to help this piece of sh!t! I guess when you think about the dog's welfare.....but the little dog is probably better off getting screeched at from his owner and having fun running the fence than by interacting with this anti-social psychopath. The dog is by now, habituated to the screeming and yelling, I'm sure.
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  #37  
Old 07-24-2010, 12:47 AM
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Let's see . . . you said the barking was a real pain when you are trying to practice classical guitar?

You might consider -- at least temporarily -- taking up "classic" bagpipes -- at least when the dogs are out. I know I would. Or maybe French horn, which your French speaking neighbors might understand a little better
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  #38  
Old 07-24-2010, 04:14 AM
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The whole thing is laden with rude, aggressive, ungrateful remarks. I simply gave my opinion on Koehler and proceded to offer helpful links, which 99% of people receive with appreciation and word of thanks....even if they don't wind up using them. It surprises me that anyone here would continue to help this piece of sh!t! I guess when you think about the dog's welfare.....but the little dog is probably better off getting screeched at from his owner and having fun running the fence than by interacting with this anti-social psychopath. The dog is by now, habituated to the screeming and yelling, I'm sure.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes, this song aint about you so don't take it so personally. Everyone here is free to take advice or leave it. I know you tried to help but you need to understand, while Koehler's methodology isn't your cup of tea and it's a little heavier handed than most methods but it will train a dog. The reason his methodology has stuck around so long is that very simply, it works. It has some downsides to the dog's learning and relationships but it does work. Do I think there is a better way, yeah. Could I be wrong in the case of this dog? Absolutely.

Let the OP figure this out based upon the feedback provided.
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  #39  
Old 07-24-2010, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Everyone here is free to take advice or leave it.
Exactly. Of course. And people do that all the time. But he didn't just leave it. He ramrodded me with insults about what brand of advice I was offering. So, yeah, it's personal and those personal attacks were about me because they were directed toward me and my post.

It's not about whether he likes Koehler or not. I couldn't care less that he didn't agree with me about Koehler or anything else. It was his sarcastic, rude and nasty post, telling me off for offering advice, trying to help, that wasn't apparently what he was looking for....links to training techniques, book ideas etc. (how was I to know he wouldn't like some links to training articles or some new book ideas?) THAT'S what I had a problem with, NOT that he didn't agree with me about Koehler. He sounded like a bratty little snot all through that post. Good grief!

This is a forum, made up of people who are interested in dogs. I've been on here since 2004 and have felt a part of the Chaz "family" for a long time. Then some ass hat marches in like gang busters and shoots me down when I was doing what I have been doing all these years. Never have I come across anyone so rude, just because I missed the mark on just exactly what they were looking for in the way of help. Never! So, if you wonder why I responded the way I did thereafter, well....there you have it.
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  #40  
Old 07-24-2010, 12:28 PM
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My last piece of advice. Move.
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