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  #21  
Old 07-22-2010, 07:43 PM
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Doberluv Doberluv is offline
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Oh Robbie. Calm down now. You're going to get over this very soon when you stop taking yourself so seriously. I'm sure if you met me in person, you'd find me top drawer! *throws in the sophisticated, English accent* You'd love me to pieces. I'm charming, witty and I'm a real people pleaser. I have the biggest heart ever. I'd fall over backwards for you. I just can't help myself though. I love playing with those little man-like guys under bridges. When they snap at the air like a dog, I love using my tricks to body block them. You're making a big mistake in your assessment of me. I don't love to start fights. I only like to join in the fun. I just don't understand...
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  #22  
Old 07-22-2010, 07:57 PM
Robbie_D Robbie_D is offline
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Thumbs up Thanks Mandy

Hi,

Thanks Mandy
Great advice, also. I need time to digest all of this advice.

Robbie_d
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  #23  
Old 07-22-2010, 09:38 PM
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Good luck. Generally the dog isn't that difficult to train -- it's the owner

But . . . you won't find anyone here (at least not anyone who is active) who has anything good to say about Koehler, Cesar or anything that uses those sillydamn dominance theories and alpha rhetoric. Sure, it looks like it works on a lot of dogs, but it works for the wrong reasons, and some of us have dogs that, frankly, would likely turn lethal if handled that foolishly. While it's not dangerous to the human to use bombastic, barbaric bullying tactics on a 10 pound toy breed, well, it really should be beneath us to use fear as a training tool in place of respect.
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Last edited by Renee750il; 07-22-2010 at 09:54 PM.
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  #24  
Old 07-22-2010, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renee750il View Post
Good luck. Generally the dog isn't that difficult to train -- it's the owner

But . . . you won't find anyone here (at least not anyone who is active) who has anything good to say about Koehler, Cesar or anything that uses those sillydamn dominance theories and alpha rhetoric. Sure, it looks like it works on a lot of dogs, but it works for the wrong reasons, and some of us have dogs that, frankly, would likely turn lethal if handled that foolishly. While it's not dangerous to the human to use bombastic, barbaric bullying tactics on a 10 pound toy breed, well, it really should be beneath us to use fear as a training tool in place of respect.
Here, here! I'll drink to that! And your whole post.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #25  
Old 07-22-2010, 11:35 PM
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I am wondering why you would be so concerned about a neighbors dogs but here goes anyway. She, not you should be training the dog or at the very least wanting the information. Probably one of the best methods is NILIF for her to use (google it, print it and give it). She needs to train the dog a 'watch me' and a 'leave it'. She can capture the 'watch me' and mark it with a Yes!, then reward but I would recommend that be done in the house and in a quiet room with little or no distractions at first.
I would recommend that she know the huge difference between lure training and reward based training because it sure is easy to screw up lure training and then blame it reward based training. Gate bolting easy, teach the dog an auto sit or down on leash, when the dogs sits/downs, it gets what it wants by going through the gate (when told too), otherwise you ask the dog to sit/down again and close the gate, takes a little bit but a very effective method of training: using what the dog wants to get them to do what you want. Also don't forget release words to end a behaviour, another thing that people often screw up on.
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  #26  
Old 07-23-2010, 12:04 AM
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Kat09Tails Kat09Tails is offline
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Compulsion training IE the Koehler method does work to train dogs and in some situations with some dogs compulsion still is used although most people do this as a last resort such as the case of the forced retrieve. It's worked for a long time on a great many dogs along the same lines that you can hammer nails through a 2x4 with a sledge hammer. You may destroy the board and the nails but it will eventually drive a nail through the board. Koehler's methodology was similar in that while it may produce a few good dogs at the end result the grand majority of dogs do not have the nerve or the temperament to withstand such heavy handling many dislike their handlers and lose the drive to perform a task. There are better ways now to get what you want.

First thing I would consider with this dog is that if Koehler's methodology is appropriate. My guess is that the answer is no. Toy dogs are not the military working german shepherds Koehler refined his methods on. Toy dogs are much softer nervous animals in general and don't take kindly to over the top corrections. It's quite possible you could make this dog much worse in general in the process of curing the behavior.

My suggestion would be to work on basic obedience on this dog. I am guessing this dog doesn't know his name, come, or anything in reliability. I also wouldn't allow this pup to play with other dogs until this is solid. I don't allow my pups to play with other dogs until they're solid in obedience under moderate distractions.
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  #27  
Old 07-23-2010, 01:06 AM
Maura Maura is offline
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As to the long line work. I use a modified method. I always use a harness. I will usually use a twenty foot lead. I walk back and forth, in a square, whatever. When the dog hits the end of the leash he is not usually running but walking or trotting. Hitting the end of the lead does not harm the dog, even at a gallop. With my niece's chihuahua I used a six foot lead because I thought the buckle on the 20 foot was too heavy for her. She learned to pay attention to me and stop lunging after five minutes. I wouldn't bet on other dogs taking five minutes, she was very smart.

Separate from the yard work, she should be taught a solid sit and recall. Use the clicker. If you use a choker your neighbor will not be inclined to follow up on the training, but she probably will with the clicker. My guess is she is much more in tune with reward than with punishment. She will probably enjoy doling out little goodies for good behavior. Once the dog is doing well with sit and recall (which it has probably been taught), go around the yard on a six foot leash and have the dog sit and recall every single place. As I stated above, this is where Koehler did not have the knowledge that we have now in regards to how dogs learn and he thought that the dogs were being rebellious when they didn't obey in class after having been taught something at home. Dogs don't generalize, so you have to repeat the lesson in every corner of the yard "just because". After you've worked the dog in every spot in the yard, put on the long long and work on the sit and recall from a distance from the dog. The long line will give the dog more freedom without giving him total freedom.

Once the dog is reliable with a distant sit he can be taught to stop and sit at a specified distance from the fence, say five feet. Without distractions, work him at sitting five feet from the fence, click and treat.

You have to realize too that Koehler could have taught a dog anything. You'll find most trainers enjoy training dogs, it's the owners they have difficulty with. A good trainer has an intuition with dogs which means while he can train a dog and make it look easy, teaching someone else the same method will have mixed results. Much of the respect that dogs had for him was because it was "him". His confidence, his sense of command, his posture, his tone of voice. If he were alive today I think he would use a clicker.
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  #28  
Old 07-23-2010, 08:32 AM
Robbie_D Robbie_D is offline
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Thumbs up Why am i so concerned about HER barking dog?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adojrts View Post
I am wondering why you would be so concerned about a neighbors dogs but here goes anyway.
Hi adojrts,
Good question. I want the dog trained because my bedroom is facing the back yard where her dog charges at the fence, barking, and it abruptly wakes me up some mornings - a real JOLT.

The dog charges the fence about 20 times per day, followed by her constant
screaming and yelling. It bothers me that she thinks the screaming and yelling is helping the situation - she is just as annoying as the dog. Put them both together and they are REALLY annoying, especialy as she sits down all tired-out acting like 'it's so much work having a dog'. She has no idea what to do. When she used to go to work, the dog would be barking all day behind the living room window facing the street. After a few complaints from her upstairs neighbor, she put card-board in the entire window so he couldn't see outside.
I think she lost her job and now gets unemployment insurance. So, now, the "good dog owner" lets her dog enjoy the fresh air by sitting all day in the back yard.

I play clasical guitar and i'm learning new classical pieces, so, i tap my foot to keep the beat, and then, i hear this dog barking at a different tempo and it throws me off time. I am taking a midday nap or dozing off early in the evening, and then BARKBARKBARK followed by her yelling after the barking dog.
These are some reasons why i want to do something - for peace and quiet.

Also, anyone can see by how the dog bolts out of the house and yard at top speed, running into the street that this dog can be fatally struck by a car, which is another reason why i am concerned about her dog.

She THINKS she is doing the right thing by screaming "Bad dog! Get in the house!" at the dog, like most dog owners who ever thought about training a dog.
She is a young, 27 year old women and she bought the dog when she was 20 - probably thinking it's a way of showing responsibility or independance or maybe as a substitute child. She probably thought that all she had to do with a dog was to housebreak it. She probably saw someone yelling at an untrained dog once, and thought to herself, "Well, that looks like fun, I get to scream and act annoyed." This is her third summer here. It's in the lease that no barking dogs are allowed but the landlord allowed the barking Bichon Maltese and this Shih tzu to move in. It's been nothing but complaints ever since. The problem is, it seems i am the only one now who is bothered by the constant barking. The other annoyed tennats moved. Everyone else is either drunk or high on pot and/or coke and probably think this is all very entertraining or they also have yappy, untrained dogs. Sometimes there are 4 dogs in the yard just downstairs from my window. Along with the Yorkie, there is also a Jack Russel who visits the Shih Tzu. So there are three dogs in one yard sometimes, and a yappy Maltese in the adjoining yard. ALL UNTRAINED.

None of my dogs barked or rushed a fence, thanks to that outdated, old school, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE man with his guard dog training book which is so outdated and hated. My last dog died 8 years ago at 10 years old due to an infection that the vet had no idea what to do with, except to ask me for yet another $200 to try yet another expensive test. The dog was put down due to my lack of money. Ever since then, i get a tear in my eye when i think about owning another dog. My Benson, was half English Sheepdog and half German Shepard. He looked like an all black, long haired, very shaggy, slightly shorter and thinner version of a Bouvier des Floundres - the best behaved dog in my area where i live. I was able to sleep nights with my front and back door wide open with Benson not tied up, he was free to roam but never did. He would go downstairs to pee, and then come back upstairs. Some mornings i would see him laying on his side at the bottom of the staircase on the cool, morning sidewalk (i live on the second floor). On the balcony he would lay there and just watch the dogs and cats pass by without making a sound. He never barked at anything. He was an incredible, irreplaceable dog with a wonderful temperment and disposition.

Anyway, you should see my neighbour after she chases the dog down in the yard and sits down again, she act like a fed-up boss who has an incapable but well-loved employee who can't be fired. It seems she thinks that by yelling at the dog, that the neighbors will recognize her efforts and say, "Well, at least she's trying to stop the problem." It's a way to have the neigbours sympathizing with her constant but fruitless efforts.
We, here, all know she is doing nothing except re-inforcing the dog's bad behaviour. The dog rushes at the fence, barking, and she follows suite. This poor dog is thinking its doing the RIGHT thing based on the owner's copycat behaviour.

That is why i want to help out. But i know how the Koehler method is viewed, so i am here asking for other options. FOR SURE the neighbors will view the Koehler method as if i am trying to hurt or break her dog's neck. I just don't want to be viewed like that after knowing what i now know. I have not been in touch with new training methods at all, which is why i started this thread.
I still like some of Koehler's methods as far as the basic obedience goes. It's the only method i ever knew of, so i guess i need to re-learn other methods, which i am not opposed to learning and doing.

Robbie_d
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  #29  
Old 07-23-2010, 08:49 AM
Robbie_D Robbie_D is offline
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Thumbs up Thanks to everyone.

Hi all,

I can't respond to every post but i am reading them closely.
Thanks for all the advice.

Robbie_d
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  #30  
Old 07-23-2010, 09:27 AM
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Renee750il Renee750il is offline
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You know, a good start might be to get a high powered water gun . . . And blast the neighbor every time she starts screaming at the dog
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In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. ~Buddha

Stupid is the most notoriously incurable and contagious disease known to mankind. If you find yourself in close proximity to someone infected with stupid, walk away as soon as said infection is noted.


There are few things more nauseating than pure obedience. ~ Kvothe

***8206;"silence is the language of god, all else is poor translation."
Rumi
Be a god. Know when to shut up.


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