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  #11  
Old 07-22-2010, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Tazwell View Post
Yes, it is possible to break a bad habit that has formed over 7 years. If you began training the dog, it would probably break very quickly, as the dog would learn what to expect from you. With the owner handling the dog, it would take time, consistency, and a lot of change-- the dog has learned what it can get away with with it's owner. Most of us here on Chaz train older dogs, like rescue dogs and such, with great success. You probably want to teach the dog a good recall in order to stop the fence lunging. Teach the dog that there is something better in store if it actually comes back to you, vs. following the distraction outside the fence.
The owner needs to be more consistent about following up on her commands with the dog. THe dog has learned to tune her out, because her commands mean nothing, they're just chatter.

If nothing else, I wouldn't recommend long-line/choke chain combo for a shih tzu, as you can collapse their trachea that way. You may end up rushing that dog to the closest E-vet.

Oh Taz...but that's positive reinforcement methods. He wants Koehler methods, you silly goose!
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  #12  
Old 07-22-2010, 04:10 PM
Robbie_D Robbie_D is offline
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Question Training a spoiled, 5 year old shih tzu.

Seeing as doberluv has openly and eloquently expressed his/her opinions, i would like to quote my original post to start over. By my doing so, and because of doberluv's shoving his/her finger in my face, i really don't think doberluv should be in this thread, seeing as his/her opinions have be clearly expressed -especially as rude as they were.
Anyone can see that dobe is using this threasd to just create crap. I ask for specific help and the final word is "remove the gate".
I am asking, openly, for moderation of this thread. I am sure dobe's behaviour is against the rules of conduct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie_D View Post
Hi every one,

I am new to this forum, so this is the first post from me.

About 20 years ago, i bought a book called, The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training. In this book are two sections: the first section deals with the selection and training of personal protection, police, plant security and military dogs. The second section is about care, housing and obediance training (of dogs in general).

I have used the obediance training section with much success. I know some, if not, many people find Koehler's methods barbaric and old school compared to, say, Cesar Millan's methods, but we are not all Cesar Millan, right?

I have a neighbor who has a 7 year old shih tzu who has never been trained AT ALL. She (the owner) says "no" to the dog, and the dogs does it anyway, and she does nothing about it. The dog was raised like this for all 7 years. Another example, she opens the gate and the dog bolts out like a bat out of hell with her screaming, "NO NO, come back!" followed by angry words which the dog doesn't understand at all (of course). She gets the dog back into the yard and as soon as the dog sees some other dog being walked in the laneway, the dog rushes the fence, fiercely, and barking and barking all ovr again. She (the owner) gets up from her garden chair and starts with the "Bad dog!" remarks at her dog and says, "Get into the house!" to which the dog just happily runs away from her while STILL barking, making the owner run after him in the yard until she can finally herd the dog up the back stairs and into the house. After a few minutes it starts all over again when the dog enters the yard.
I stand on my balcony watching all the stupidity, not knowing who exactly i am shaking my head in disbelief at, her or the dog. I think to myself, "The dog is 7 years old and the owner has been doing this for all 7 years of this dogs life. What can be done?"

The owner is probably thinking in her head that she is doing ALL she can possibly do, and seems to have adopted this attitude of "such is life" with her dog. The way she acts is as if she is running after a child and this "child" has the right to behave like this, after all, the dog is 7 years old and is unstoppable.

I have offered to help her train her dog to not rush the fence, and to stop barking, as well. I would be using the Koehler Method to do this, after first establishing a slow but certain take-over of the dominance this dog is showing, by FIRST introducing basic obediance such as the sit, stay, heel (on leash), come, and down commands before finally using the long line with a choker (with the eventual end-of-the-line-jerk) when the dog rushes the fence and reaches the end of the line when he ignores a "come" or "down" or "sit" command while in fence-charging motion. That should give the dog enough time to rethink charging the fence after being SELF jerked a few times at the end of the long line.

Seeing as the dog is 7 years old and pretty much set in its ways, i figure i will start with treats (like hot dog bits) and lots of praise, and will suggest to the owner to offer only half of the dog's daily food so to keep him attentive, and to maintain the dog's interest during the basic obediance lessons. The treats will be removed and substituted with more praise, after a while, when i see he is getting the idea.

Many people, as i've mentioned, think Koehler's methods are cruel and unjust even boardering on animal abuse, which i disagree with having used his method on several dogs with much success, years ago. There is no abuse, in my opinion, providing the method is applied correctly and consistantly.

To be honest, though, i've really only applied the Koehler Method on puppies, never on mature dogs who have been allowed to control the household, such as this shih tzu. So, i am concerned. I have not trained a dog in years, let alone an adult dog. The shih tzu seems very bright and happy go lucky, though - no biting or bad behaviour, at all other than the charging and barking. He seems like a good training candidate, even at 7 years old.

There are lots of distractions in the laneway that would make the "fence charging temptation factor" great, therefore offering many chances for corrective training. I am just worried that the owner and even some of the other dog owing neighbors might think i am being too harsh, as they all have toy breeds that bark. The shih tzu of the lot is the only gate charger, though.

The shih tzu shares a fence with the neighbor's YAPPY 10 year old bichon maltese. This matese barks at the blades of grass when the wind moves them, barks at cats slowly passing by the fence, even barks at cats that are sleeping in the next yard - a totally unsocialized dog with separation anxiety in the extreme, to say the very least. The maltese is a total loss as far as i am concerned.

Another neighbor has a 12 year old yorkshire terrier that visits the shih tzu in the same yard daily, and they play well together. The yorky barks and barks and barks and barks and...well, you get the idea, right?
The thing is, the yorky's previous owner had the dog's vocal cords cuts so that when it barks, it sounds like a hoarse, coughing sound instead of a yappy bark. "It's a good thing the vocal cords were cut", i say to myself when the yorky barks, because i can only IMAGINE the racket this dog would make if its vocal cords weren't cut - SHEESH, i get angry just thinking about it.
The maltese is NOT at all social enough to even know how to play with other dogs, so the three dogs don't share the same yard for playtime, at all. The other two dogs are running around and playing in one yard while the maltese is in its own little world, ignoring the other two, and is barking at its own shadow, or a squirrel two yards away, or a butterfly, or even barking at the wind (it's ridiculous to behold, really).

Would anyone like to offer any advice or suggestions for dealing with the 7 year old shih tzu?
Or am i on the right track as far as the plan i've described in this post?

Thanks for reading this.
I eagerly await your experienced opinions regarding this matter.
Robbie D
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  #13  
Old 07-22-2010, 04:18 PM
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Until the behavior is gone the dog should not be allowed off leash. To start I would keep the dog on a normal leash (6 foot). I would use a clicker for this behavior because you want to mark a very quick behavior.

It would be best if you could have someone with a dog help you out with this training, that way you can have the person walk past the fence over and over so that you can practice more than you would if you were just waiting for random dogs to pass.

First you'll need to charge the clicker. I don't like the idea of just clicking and treating, it works but I prefer to teach a small behavior at the same time. I like to teach a hand touch (he touches your hand with his nose) to charge the clicker. Basically offer your hand, when he goes to sniff it click and give him a treat. Then just do that over and over. If he doesn't go to sniff it put it behind your back for a minute and then quickly bring it back out in front of his face. Once he starts touching his nose to your hand each time you present it (quickly) you'll know he's getting the idea and likely understands the clicker. Then you can move onto the fence behavior.

First stand near the fence with the dog on leash and a pouch full of treats on your body. Have a person without a dog walk by the fence where ever they normally would. The second the dog looks at the person click and treat. repeat each and every time the dog looks at the person. Have the person walk by a few times so the dog gets the idea that when he looks at the person he'll get a treat. The goal is for the dog to anticipate the treat getting so he starts looking at the person then away before you even click, but that will come later.

Then you'll have the person walk by with a dog. The INSTANT the Shih Tzu sees the dog click and treat. And click and treat EVERY time he looks at the dog without barking. If she does start barking you have two options. One is to wait for the dog to stop barking. Have the person with the dog stop moving and just wait and see if the dog shuts up. If she does click and treat then continue clicking and treating for quiet looking at the dog. The second option is if the dog never stops barking. Just walk the dog away from the fence until he's far enough away from the dog that he stops barking. Again, click and treat for silence and then move back towards the fence and continue clicking and treating for silent looking at the dog (even as you walk).

Just do this over and over having the person and the dog walk by several times. If the dog does really well with this she may start looking at the dog and then back up at you each time. If this is the case wait until the dog is looking at you before you click (so the dog looks at the dog, then at you, and then you click and treat). If this causes the dog to start failing again go back to the previous step of clicking when he looks at the dog.

Later you can move onto a longer leash. Stand further away from the dog and follow the same procedure. When the dog sees the dog click and treat (either walk to the dog or see if she runs to you when you click). A delay between the click and treat is fine. Again if the dog starts barking either wait for silence or walk the dog away. If you are using a random dog going by (as opposed to someone who's helping you out and will stop moving if the Shih Tzu starts barking) I'd use the walking away method.

Once the dog is doing well with you at a distance start holding out for longer silence. Have him look at the dog (or you if he looks at the dog and then stares at you) for a longer period of time before you click. Continue this until the dog can walk all the way by before the Shih Tzu gets his click and treat. This might take a while but once you get here it gets much easier. You'll simply be waiting for the dog to walk by and then you'll reward with the click and treat (or many treats the first few times so he really gets a good reward for holding his tongue for the whole time). Do not rush this process, if you make the dog wait a little longer and this causes him to repeatedly start barking when the dog goes by then you have to drop back to a shorter time between clicks. Once you are to the point where the dog is silent the entire time a dog passes by then gets his reward several times in a row you can remove the leash and repeat. I would stand close to the dog for the first few times so that if he does starts barking you can quickly put the leash on and remove. But if things go well you can start putting distance between you and the dog until you are as far as the owner normally is from the dog when this behavior occurs.


I would continue clicking and treating after the other dog has passed for a very long time, I don't see any reason not to. The owner will just have to remember to bring a few treats out with her when she takes the dog out.

If the dog just needs to go out for a potty break, not for training, he should be on a regular leash away from the fence.

I know there are a lot of words in my post but the process itself is very simple and straightforward. Reward the dog for quietly looking at other dogs through the fence, then increase distance between you and the dog, then increase time between rewards. If the dog starts to fail go back a step.

Like you said, other dogs barking is hard to resist. The dog should also be rewarded when he hears another dog's bark and stays quiet.

But this isn't your dog....are you sure the owner wants help and is willing to work with the dog? or are you going to be helping with the actual training? If the owner doesn't care about the behavior that much there's really nothing you can do.

And please don't get upset about people getting up in arms about Koehler. You need to understand that for many of us he is one of the, if not the, most abusive trainers we know of, so hearing that someone may apply these methods to a dog makes people feel the need to do something about it, that's all. You can't let that upset you, we are notorious for debates and arguments, for most of us they end with no hard feelings but for new members they can be upsetting, it's nothing personal just the way things tend to be on this forum. I HIGHLY doubt someone would moderate this thread, one of the greatest things about this forum is that it's not heavily moderated at all. people are allowed to argue and **** each other off, so long as there are no personal attacks and people don't start going into each others threads just to start up fights.
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  #14  
Old 07-22-2010, 04:18 PM
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Tazwell Tazwell is offline
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Well, he stated very clearly that he wanted to know how possible it is to train a 7 year old spoiled dog.... And I wanted to state something about the choke chain, long line, and shih tzu idea...

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  #15  
Old 07-22-2010, 04:25 PM
Robbie_D Robbie_D is offline
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Thumbs up Finally!

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Originally Posted by Tazwell View Post
Yes, it is possible to break a bad habit that has formed over 7 years. If you began training the dog, it would probably break very quickly, as the dog would learn what to expect from you. With the owner handling the dog, it would take time, consistency, and a lot of change-- the dog has learned what it can get away with with it's owner. Most of us here on Chaz train older dogs, like rescue dogs and such, with great success. You probably want to teach the dog a good recall in order to stop the fence lunging. Teach the dog that there is something better in store if it actually comes back to you, vs. following the distraction outside the fence.

The owner needs to be more consistent about following up on her commands with the dog. THe dog has learned to tune her out, because her commands mean nothing, they're just chatter.

If nothing else, I wouldn't recommend long-line/choke chain combo for a shih tzu, as you can collapse their trachea that way. You may end up rushing that dog to the closest E-vet.
Many great points, here. How about using a harness instead of the choke?
She is in the yard all day long with the dog, chasing him around like a fool. I can convince her to train the dog if it means she can lay around and chatter with the neighbors instead of chasing down a dog who has indeed "tuned her out".

By showing something better to do in the yard is the better approach, what is the "something better"? Remember, there is often a second dog in the same yard - not always, but say, after 5pm, the yorky comes downstairs for about 4 - 5 hours, there's usually the other downstairs neighbors (consisting of three brothers - two of which smokes pot, does coke and drinks beer, one is a crack head. They own cats!) So, she does a little with them.

If all the energy she puts into chasing and yelling after him, was channeled into training her dog, her dog would be better adjusted to the yard.

I asked about the harness with the long line jerk, remember?

Robbie_d
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  #16  
Old 07-22-2010, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Robbie_D View Post
Hi,
Thanks to those who've responded, so far, and i am sorry if your answers are not addressing my question to my satisfaction. It seems i am getting advice on which books to burn, and told how bad and outdated Koehler's Method is.

At the time of publication of Koehler's book(s) literally over 15,000 dogs were trained using the method. As i read the credentials Koehler had, well it seems he did know dogs enough to obtain the status he obtained - not just any fool is accepted to train for Walt Disney studios, the USA military, the K-9 Corps, and maybe more that i don't know of. So to say that the man was incapable of knowing dogs or how they are, is silly, in my opinion.
True, many methods have been developed over the years by other people who use more intelligent approaches. I've never read any of them. And yes, Koehler's method is rather harsh, i am not denying that. I bought one book years ago, the Koehler book, and i've used his methods while people gasped at what i was doing. However, people always admired how well the dogs were conditioned to behave and were always considered to be well adapted. The good thing about his methods is the dog learns fast. Animals in the wild nature learn the hard way, too, and that's called, nature. I wonder how many wild animals are given treats and such to learn things. Maybe we could all go hunt down the mothers of bear cubs, or whatever animal, and explain the more subtle ways of teaching. Yes i am being a bit sarcastic, i didn't start off that way in here.
I am not here to discuss, defend, or bash the Koehler or any other method, even though it seems that way, thanks to fuss about Koehler in this thread. And i am certainly NOT here to argue, so if you wish to argue, lay off, please!
I've seen the other threads about Koehler. If i want to discuss any of that, i can post in those Koehler threads.

I am, also, not really asking what any one thinks of the Koehler Method. I have stated that many people are against it - so i am already aware of how people feel about it. I am also aware that there are probably hundreds of other training authors out there all claiming to be more subtle, gentle, smart, scientific, compassionate, etc etc.
I've, also, stated how i feel about the Koeler Method having had used it, myself, successfully, years ago.
I've never agitated a military or police dog. I just used the basic obediance methods.

The point of my being here is not to be told to burn books and go read a library of other books and a list of internet links. If i wanted to know what the current, modern trainers are doing with dogs these days, i'm certain i would have asked that question.

However, I am asking only about training a neighbor's 7 year old, male, shih tzu dog to stop charging a fence. Instead of telling me to read a list of books and links and then get back to you, why not just offer some advice about the question i've asked? And if you can't, or choose not to, address the question, why even bother responding at all?!

I'm sorry if i sound too...whatever word best describes the tone of this post.I feel that this thread has been hijacked into a "We all hate Koehler and those who've used his method" thread.
If this is all too much to handle, maybe the moderator can step in and moderate this situation or perhaps just delete my account if that will make the one or two unhappy poster(s) happy.

I've noted the suggested material and i've poked around on youtube to see a few videos about the authors who were suggested to me. Great. Which one discusses breaking a 7 years old shih tzu's habit of fence charging?

This post is not an invitation for a spitting match, thank you.
To be honest, doberluv's posts are not helpful in regards to my original question. S/he offers great advice for someone looking for lessons on new methods of dog training, and that's not what i asked for help with. It seems the mere mention of Koehler's name angers that particular poster as well as others, perhaps.
So, please, if you want to be helpful, fine, address the question. If you choose to preach to me and treat me like a bit of a moron, i think the moderator should step in and moderate.
Thanks for reading, and i hope i didn't **** anyone off.
If i did **** someone off, well then that person was just waiting to be pissed off. My advice is to THAT person would be to log off for a few days, weeks or months and stop living on an internet forum
. I haven't read all 15,000 posts, iv'e read two to me that were rather off topic.

Robbie_d

I'm sorry if i sound too...whatever word best describes the tone of this post

Not word....words. They would be: sarcastic, sardonic, rude, ungrateful, presumptuous, flippant, especially as a new member, and ignorant. To ask for advice, then demand that the advice be of a brand that doesn't meld with basic morality and common sense is outrageously obnoxious. Furthermore, it is obviously not your intention to gain any advice. You've already expounded on your past experience in successful dog training. There is no need to ask advice for a very simple behavior problem if you measure up to your bloated version of your training experience and the vast knowledge gleaned from Koehler and Milan.

You sure came off as if you're here to stir things up. It is apparent that you're intoxicated by the exuberance of your own verbosity.

I could have told you how to train the dog, but you insisted on Koehler-like methods, from what I perceived from your long winded admiration of him and rejection of any attempt to share another method with you...you ungrateful troll! Yes, I'm acutally LOL!
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:56 PM
Robbie_D Robbie_D is offline
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Unhappy I've ignored/muzzled Doberluv!

I have ignored/muzzled Doberluv for obvious reasons. I wish to make a complaint about Doberluv's aggressive behavior to the mods of this board, also.
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Old 07-22-2010, 07:00 PM
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I have ignored/muzzled Doberluv for obvious reasons. I wish to make a complaint about Doberluv's aggressive behavior to the mods of this board, also.
It's true. It can not be denied. Doberluv is very aggressive to the mods of this board...also. You ought to see what she wrote to them! Shockingly aggressive stuff!
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Old 07-22-2010, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie_D View Post
Many great points, here. How about using a harness instead of the choke?
She is in the yard all day long with the dog, chasing him around like a fool. I can convince her to train the dog if it means she can lay around and chatter with the neighbors instead of chasing down a dog who has indeed "tuned her out".
ANY way you do the long line yanking no matter choke, prong, harness, flat buckle collar you're going to possibly do damage to this dog. This is a VERY abusive method no matter what. If you read some of the links Doberluv posted you'd see that dominance theory and all these older methods have been discredited, heck if i do recall kohler even recently released a new edition of his book taking out/toning down A LOT of his methods.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie_D View Post
By showing something better to do in the yard is the better approach, what is the "something better"? Remember, there is often a second dog in the same yard - not always, but say, after 5pm, the yorky comes downstairs for about 4 - 5 hours, there's usually the other downstairs neighbors (consisting of three brothers - two of which smokes pot, does coke and drinks beer, one is a crack head. They own cats!) So, she does a little with them.
First make sure there are no distractions for the dog and put the dog on a 6ft leash with a harness or a flat buckle collar (no chokes no prongs no martingales). Find a toy or a treat the dog likes a lot. Teach the dog "watch me" or their name first and use that toy or treat as the reward. If the dog doesn't do what you ask at first, don't punish don't get angry don't get abusive. Walk away for a little bit if you get worked up, it's a LONG process. After the "watch me" is taught move on to sit and lay down using luring. No touching the dog at all, just lure. When the dog does what you want, say "good" and reward. When the dog doesn't do what you want, take a walk and breathe and try again. The next thing you'll need to teach is stay and recall. Put the dog in a sit on a long line, say stay, walk about 2 steps away and then say "ok!" to release and praise/reward. Slowly (and we're talking over a few days) move farther away. If a mistake is made, go back a couple steps and retry. For a recall, on a long take a few steps away from the dog and call their name. If they come, reward, if they don't then do what i've suggested before. You may need to coax at first with the treat/toy, but you can fade that away easily. Over the course of a few days or weeks work farther away.

All those things need to be worked on when distractions are around as well. In parks, with other dogs, etc. Proof the recall with the fence distraction and proof the stay (all on long lead of course) with the gate.

Do NOT hit, tug, jerk, yank, pop, toss, holler, or man handle the dog at all. Keep sessions short. i usually do about four 15 minute sessions per day with my dogs at most.
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  #20  
Old 07-22-2010, 07:24 PM
Robbie_D Robbie_D is offline
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Thumbs up Thanks Maxi24

Hi,
Great tips, Maxi24. I will read and re-read your post until i have it memorized. The clicker is new to me, but then again i am not a dog trainer so i am not up to snuff with all the newest tools and methods. Just goes to show that one doesn't need to have 15,000 posts to sound intelligent.

As far as doberluv goes, every forum has one poster with 15,000 or so posts who thinks he or she speaks for an entire forum. Judging the quality of the posts made in this thread by that member, i'm certain i know the type of person he/she is.
There is an old expression which states "a wise man speaks when he has something to say, and a fool speaks when he just has to say something". Another one goes, "manners don't cost anything, they're free."

Some people in forums look for fights, it helps them get a higher post count (twirls index finger in the air as if to say, whoop tee doo). Doberluv has lost all credibility with me after referring to him/herself as a sophisticated person and posting such dribble and froth. Dobe seems to have trouble reading and comprehending posts correctly. End of the "dober topic", please. I've had a taste, it's bitter and distasteful.

If there are any other members with suggestions for dealing with this shih tzu, i would be really interested to read your input. Even if to compare methods and maybe even mix the methods up a bit.

Thanks for the good advice.
Robbie_d
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