Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dogs - General Dog Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 07-21-2010, 06:07 PM
HayleyMarie's Avatar
HayleyMarie HayleyMarie is offline
Like a bat outa' hell
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Beautiful British Columbia!!
Posts: 6,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
So far you've been lucky. You supressed that behavior of growling, at least thus far. But in many, many cases, that punishing the growl backfires and the next time the dog's resources are threatened, he doesn't growl. He bites. It turned out that you haven't been growled at again, but is the dog feeling any less concerned about having her valuables taken away? Maybe you've shown her later on that you won't take her bone. How is she if you need to take something very high value out of her mouth?

And of course, depending on temperament, breed type and individual, some dogs will back down easily and never give their owner any further problems. But there are those that will only back down temporarily or not at all. So, prevention is the best policy IMO. That is...to condition a dog to enjoy having humans near his stuff because one never knows how any particular dog is going to react or process that kind of feedback over the long term. Punishment should never be used to treat aggression. In this case, "aggression."
Oh I agree that there was probably a better way of dealing with her growling at me, back then I was just learning and still am learning on how to deal with different situation with dogs. And I am leaning heap amout of stuff from you guys. You guys are life savers Especially now will Emme who is totally different that Teagan.

To answer your question. I can take anything away from Teagan whenever I want. I could take it away using my own teeth if I needed to, although I would never need to do that now would I I also have taught her fantastic bite inhibition, which probably helps.

She does not feel the need to resource guard because I dont take things away from her for no apparent reason. She is happy to chew a bully stick right beside me on the couch. And if I do take a bully stick away all I say is "drop it or leave it" and she lets it go and I can take it but I always give her a toy right after and play with her a bit.
__________________


Teagan Westhighland White Terrier
Panzer South African Boerboel Mastiff
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-21-2010, 06:43 PM
Chewbecca's Avatar
Chewbecca Chewbecca is offline
feel the magic
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,328
Default

I'll post here what I posted on my pit bull forums (someone suggested the book "MINE!" by Jean Donaldson?):

He'll growl ONLY in the crate WHEN his kong is in there and the door is shut.
Those things all have to occur, or there are NO issues at all.

I can hold it and he'll eat from it nicely, or he'll try to grab it from me and take off with it.
Outside of the crate, I can take it away from him with no issue.

I don't know if it's a combo of crate guarding and food/resource guarding, but those things (in my first sentence) all have to happen for him to growl.

He doesn't growl at me if it's a toy (at least he hasn't as of yet) or anything other than a frozen kong.

I can train both he and Ophie next to each other, treats given, and no food aggression.
At all.

Whatever the issue is, it's definitely related to the crate AND the kong.
I have to go back and read some of the replies as I haven't made it through all of the thread.


I know I probably shouldn't have taken his kong from him the first time, but I wasn't thinking correctly. I was stupid and thought, "Perhaps he's not really growling at me. Maybe I can try to take his kong and see what he does..."
And I got SUPER lucky.
Because had it been solely JUST a resource guarding issue with the kong, then I could have gotten hurt.
But since I believe it has something to do with the kong AND the crate door being shut (a combination, maybe of crate AND food guarding?), I was ok.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-21-2010, 06:48 PM
Renee750il's Avatar
Renee750il Renee750il is offline
Felurian
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Where the selas blooms
Posts: 94,266
Default

It may be that is one of his quirks and it's as simple as giving him something other than a kong in the crate, but it would be best if he can learn that he's not going to be deprived because the crate door is closed.

It might be as simple as pointing out to the silly lout that as long as the crate door is CLOSED, he CAN'T lose the kong
__________________
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. ~Buddha

Stupid is the most notoriously incurable and contagious disease known to mankind. If you find yourself in close proximity to someone infected with stupid, walk away as soon as said infection is noted.


There are few things more nauseating than pure obedience. ~ Kvothe

***8206;"silence is the language of god, all else is poor translation."
Rumi
Be a god. Know when to shut up.


Good Kharma Tags
Felurian
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-21-2010, 07:37 PM
corgipower's Avatar
corgipower corgipower is offline
Tweleve Enthusiest
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: here
Posts: 8,233
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renee750il View Post
It might be as simple as pointing out to the silly lout that as long as the crate door is CLOSED, he CAN'T lose the kong
LOL. I tell Ares that every night when he's grumbly during dinner time. He has yet to figure it out.

And yea, while he can't lose the kong, he also can't escape with (or even without) the kong and that's the part he does know.

TBH, I don't know how much I'd worry about it if it's truly ONLY when all those factors come together. I would work to be sure it never progresses to other situations, and I would drop treats into the crate whenever I went near it just because it can't hurt, but I wouldn't stress. I leave my crew alone when they're crated, and especially if they have food/treats/toys in there also. That's their time to be able to enjoy what they have without worries.
__________________
The slayer of all things happy since 2010
Kibble feeder since 1973

Extreme owner of four herding dogs

puzzles, poetry and so much more ~ Doggy Puzzles created by me
sleep!!!
My dog Votes!
proud member of the MUMS 2009 7th place team CISRA 2009 1st place team SUMS 2009 2nd place team
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-21-2010, 07:59 PM
Chewbecca's Avatar
Chewbecca Chewbecca is offline
feel the magic
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,328
Default

See that's my concern is that this growling and guarding from the crate with the door shut will progress to other areas/situations.

I had to crate the pups a bit ago, and I walked up to Luke with pieces of training kibble, and hand-fed him through the crate door.
He was totally fine with it. No growling when I fed Ophie some through her crate door.
No growling when I fed Ophie and looked at him.
He took the pieces nicely from my fingers.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-21-2010, 07:59 PM
Doberluv's Avatar
Doberluv Doberluv is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: western Wa
Posts: 21,912
Default

I know what you mean Renee. Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do at the time. I've had plenty of occassions in the past where I told a dog, "Hey! Quit!" (to take care of an urgent situation at hand) But then I knew I had to go back to square one and work on showing the dog that whatever it is he had his "panties in a twist" (I hate that expression) is really nothing more than a figment of his imagination. LOL. They're so easy to brainwash.

And you're so right. The individual dog has to be taken into consideration. However....(you knew that was going to come out of my mouth, didn't you) dogs are still animals and they're all the same species with similar tendencies, stemming from instincts that they all have to one degree or another. And history shows us that there are certain things we do, where there are odds that work in or against our favor and certain outcomes that are very typical. Some of them are almost predictable. But it's really hard to know exactly just how any dog will be affected because they're not really static ever. They may have had a rotten day and are stressed out to the hilt and what might not have riled them up one day, does that day. (just like with us) So that's why my stance is to err on the side of caution. But I can tell from your posts AND from the fact that you have filas, (lol) that you understand them and instinctively know how to balance them out just so.
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-21-2010, 08:00 PM
Baxter'smybaby's Avatar
Baxter'smybaby Baxter'smybaby is offline
swimming upstream
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 21,976
Default

I think I'd stop the kongs for a bit and see if it helps him avoid the behavior--at least until you can get your trainer's thoughts on the matter.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-21-2010, 08:06 PM
ihartgonzo's Avatar
ihartgonzo ihartgonzo is offline
and Fozzie B!
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 5,903
Default

Fozzie used to guard his raw bones from me, as a puppy. I was also VERY offended and hurt and concerned, until I realized he was just being insecure and it was my job to make him feel secure and safe.

I used hot dogs or cheetos to trade him. Lots and lots and lots of trading! Make it a fun game. Give him something super low value... like a Kong full of kibble, and throw him a hotdog. When he goes for the hotdog, grab the Kong, put a string cheese in it, tell him he's a good boy and give it back. It also helps to teach him really good self control. Make him lay down and wait for a few minutes before he's allowed to take his food/chew/kong. It will help him realize that YOU are the benevolent food provider, and YOU give him lots of good things, but he has to be polite about taking it and get permission first.

"MINE!" is an awesome book!!!! I highly recommend it.
__________________


<3 Erica, Gonzo & Fozzie
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-21-2010, 08:13 PM
Chewbecca's Avatar
Chewbecca Chewbecca is offline
feel the magic
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,328
Default

Ok, I am going to get MINE! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs.

Should I also get "FIGHT! A Practical Guide to the Treatment of Dog-Dog Aggression[/u]?

And The Culture Clash book as well???

If I buy all three of those then I'll get free shipping from Amazon.
But are those books worth the read?

I know a LOT of people praise Jean Donaldson, but I wasn't sure.
I know Patricia McConnell's book "The other End of the Leash" taught me soooo much about dogs and how they communicate differently from humans.
And it taught me that in a matter of a few pages.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-21-2010, 08:23 PM
Doberluv's Avatar
Doberluv Doberluv is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: western Wa
Posts: 21,912
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HayleyMarie View Post
Oh I agree that there was probably a better way of dealing with her growling at me, back then I was just learning and still am learning on how to deal with different situation with dogs. And I am leaning heap amout of stuff from you guys. You guys are life savers Especially now will Emme who is totally different that Teagan.

To answer your question. I can take anything away from Teagan whenever I want. I could take it away using my own teeth if I needed to, although I would never need to do that now would I I also have taught her fantastic bite inhibition, which probably helps.

She does not feel the need to resource guard because I dont take things away from her for no apparent reason. She is happy to chew a bully stick right beside me on the couch. And if I do take a bully stick away all I say is "drop it or leave it" and she lets it go and I can take it but I always give her a toy right after and play with her a bit.
Sounds like you're doing everything right and she has let go of the notion that you're any threat. And that bite inhibition is so important. Way to go! Some dogs just have a soft mouth naturally and some can be barracudas. So, it's good to work on that when they're pups.

Oh gosh! Just like anything, this dog stuff is always a learning thing. We're all still learning. I try (doesn't always happen) to learn something new every day by reading a little twist on something or reading a whole new concept or method.

I was very, very bossy with my dogs when I was younger. I mean, I fell for the "gotta show 'em whose boss" routine or they'll take over the company. This was the only game in town. I wasn't particularly harsh, (loved them too much for that) but I was bossy Bessy. It's only been in the past decade and a half or so where I've put some of my previous animal behavior schooling to work. It's funny....I went to school, but didn't really apply "Skinnerisms" to dog training or to my horses for that matter until I started practicing what I read later on. There it was for all to see and yet, the dominance panacea rolled right along. I've only been training using pos. R for I'd say about 13-15 years or so, my own dogs, and more recently with other peoples' dogs. And all along, and even still, I have to fight some of those old, more compulsive impulses that pop up from time to time. It's probably easier to start out not having any or not much experience and learn the "right" way from the get go, except for the fact that it takes time to get to really know dogs. But I have trained (or interacted) with dogs in a more dominant/coercive way and with positive reinforcement type methods. There's no question in my mind which is vastly more effective and which creates a better bond with my dogs and me.
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:11 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site