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  #11  
Old 07-10-2010, 02:52 PM
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PWCorgi PWCorgi is offline
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Thanks everybody!! As always, learned a bunch from you!

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What kind of treats are you using? With Fozzie, there's delicious training treats.... and then there's shaping treats!!! I save his highest value treat (cheetos mixed in with chicken heart bits) for shaping, because he offers all sorts of crazy behaviors in hopes of a piece.
We've just been using his kibble, but I read this and used some sliced ham this morning. He definitely is trying harder, but he still doesn't seem to get it completely. He will stand on the book multiple times in a row for clicks and treats, then randomly (it seems) just offer something like a down. I like that he is offering a different behavior, but why wouldn't he just step on the book again, he knows it works
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  #12  
Old 07-10-2010, 03:01 PM
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Beanie Beanie is offline
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Auggie does the SAME THING, LOL. It's really weird. I was just commenting to my mom about that. If something is working (like backing up) why all of a sudden offer me a sit or a down or try pawing at stuff??
I think Auggie is a) making it too complicated for himself. He thinks there must be something else he SHOULD be doing so he's trying that. or b) he gets bored doing the same thing over and over so he starts offering something else to try and make it more fun for himself. Or he's just stupid, LMAO.
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  #13  
Old 07-10-2010, 03:59 PM
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lizzybeth727 lizzybeth727 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PWCorgi View Post
He will stand on the book multiple times in a row for clicks and treats, then randomly (it seems) just offer something like a down. I like that he is offering a different behavior, but why wouldn't he just step on the book again, he knows it works
I have two theories:

1.) laying down also works... he's gotten clicks and treats for that in the past, how's he supposed to know he won't get clicks and treats for that now?

I've seen a lot of dogs do this if stimulus control (you don't get reinforced for the behavior unless I ask for it) isn't a priority for the trainer. When I started with my own dog, if we were in one session and she suddenly offered some other cute behavior, I'd click/treat that cute behavior even though it wasn't what I was trying to shape. I ended up with a creative dog who can't really do a whole lot on cue. Now, I'm very careful to stay focused on the behavior I'm trying to shape, no matter what else the dog does.... and now my dogs can figure out pretty quickly which behaviors don't get reinforced during a shaping session and don't waste our time offering those behaviors.

2.) maybe he's bored/tired/frustrated/whatever... like his brain is fried from the session.

MOST of the time when I have a dog that does this, it's because I kept the session going too long. Most of my shaping sessions are only 2 minutes long (I set a timer and force myself to stop!); sometimes longer but certainly never more than 5 minutes straight. For a lot of dogs, I do even shorter sessions; one dog I had couldn't go longer than 30 seconds for the first few months until his endurance was built up. Remember that it's way more efficient (the behavior will be learned faster in the long run) if you stop while the dog is still being successful, rather than waiting to stop when he's getting tired.
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  #14  
Old 07-10-2010, 06:58 PM
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PWCorgi PWCorgi is offline
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Lol, I personally think Frodo just likes to screw with me. I mean, if he does it right, then I am going to start fading the rewards, so throwing in stuff like this makes me continue to reward because he thinks that I think that he doesn't know it!

Quote:
I have two theories:

1.) laying down also works... he's gotten clicks and treats for that in the past, how's he supposed to know he won't get clicks and treats for that now?
Makes sense.
I have been doing VERY well about clicking only the behavior that I want though. I should get cookies for that!

Quote:
2.) maybe he's bored/tired/frustrated/whatever... like his brain is fried from the session.
I do keep the sessions very short. Usually less than 2-3 minutes. I could agree that maybe he is frustrated though. He can do a very forceful down when he wants to!
He usually follows me to put treats/props/etc away, so I would say he is still engaged and wanting more at the end.

Now...another question
(this is EXACTLY why I need to be in a class and paying someone so I can bother them )

I've gotten to the point where he KNOWS his front paws need to be on the book. So my next criteria would be movement of back legs. Which he does. Not purposefully, but he does shift/take small steps/etc and I click them. And click them. And click them.

He still doesn't seem to do it purposefully. I am thinking maybe he just has really bad hind end awareness and doesn't even think about what is going on behind his shoulders?
I am totally willing to continue clicking movement of his back legs, but I also don't want to waste time clicking and giving him mixed signals about what he is doing correctly.

An alternative I could do (that I saw on a luring video of teaching the pivot as opposed to the shaped one) would be to walk into him while his front paws are on the book so that he would have to walk his back legs around. But I feel like that is going to make it hard to then make him do that on his own while starting at a front position...
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Ado's Gimme Victory RL1* "Siri"
1.5 year old Jack Russell Terrier
Gimme Drugs Not Hugs RL1 "Frodo"
8 year old Pembroke Welsh Corgi


*All Siri's rally/obedience titles are to be considered handled by Megan,
because ain't nobody (read: me) got time or skills fo' dat.
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  #15  
Old 07-10-2010, 07:43 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
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In my experience, the book pivot thing really helps teach hind end awareness. I've seen a HUGE difference in Gavroche since I taught him to do it. I need to get going on it with Logan too. The poor dog is so clumsy, he needs all the help he can get lol
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  #16  
Old 07-10-2010, 08:45 PM
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Sael, do you just click for them moving their back feet or do you use your own body movement to get them to move, then click?
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Ado's Gimme Victory RL1* "Siri"
1.5 year old Jack Russell Terrier
Gimme Drugs Not Hugs RL1 "Frodo"
8 year old Pembroke Welsh Corgi


*All Siri's rally/obedience titles are to be considered handled by Megan,
because ain't nobody (read: me) got time or skills fo' dat.
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  #17  
Old 07-10-2010, 10:03 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PWCorgi View Post
Sael, do you just click for them moving their back feet or do you use your own body movement to get them to move, then click?
With Gavroche I use my body movement - that is, I stand with him in a front, and move a little, and expect him to follow in the front position. I click for movement then. However after doing this a few times he started offering to move around the book before I ever moved.

I used it mainly to help solidify fronts, but the improved hind end awareness was a big plus, as was a tighter heel/LLW.
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  #18  
Old 07-10-2010, 11:58 PM
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lizzybeth727 lizzybeth727 is offline
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I would use body movements as well.

What's your goal? For him to move from a front to heel position? If that's it, then I'd suggest starting with him in heel, then move away from him just a touch so that he learns to move his back feet in towards you. You want him to move in a tight circle, so that his front feet stay in the same spot but his back feet move into you. And click any movement of the back feet coming in, even if it's a tiny movement.

I don't feel like that's very clear (it's much easier to explain if you can demo it in person!), so I'll explain another way. Start with him standing in heel position at your left side with his front feet on the book. Preferably it's a small book so his feet are pretty much in the middle. Imagine a little tiny circle around his front feet, and a much larger circle that his back feet will move in if he pivots the whole circle with his front feet in that little circle.... like a compass kids use in school to draw perfect circles, the pointy end would be his front feet, they stay in the spot, and the pencil end would be his back feet, they rotate around. Ok, so he's in heel. Now you move about 1/8 of the way around the circle, so that when he gets in heel position at your new spot, his front feet will have stayed in the same spot and his back feet will be the only thing to move. Click when he moves his back feet. Then move another 1/8 of the way around the circle. When he starts getting the idea, you can move 1/4 of the way at a time, then 1/2 way, 3/4, whatever. Halfway around, though, would be him moving from front to heel, which would be your finished behavior.

But if your goal is to work on straighter fronts, you'd do a similar thing except you start with him in front instead of heel. Then you just rotate around the circle, clicking his back feet moving into a straight front.
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  #19  
Old 07-11-2010, 12:03 AM
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lizzybeth727 lizzybeth727 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PWCorgi View Post
Lol, I personally think Frodo just likes to screw with me. I mean, if he does it right, then I am going to start fading the rewards, so throwing in stuff like this makes me continue to reward because he thinks that I think that he doesn't know it!
I'm pretty sure you're joking (can never tell for sure over the internet!), but it is definately possible that that's what he's figured out here. If so, then you really need to figure out for Frodo, what is the purpose of switching to a variable reinforcement schedule and how to make it more effective. 'Cause really, you should be pretty constantly switching the reward schedule based on what behaviors he's offering. I know trainers often describe shaping as a step-by-step system, but in practice it is very fluid; you don't necessarily "finish" one step before going on to the next.
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