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  #91  
Old 09-24-2005, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambina
breeding properly and for good reasons.
I'm saying and intending this much nicer than it comes off over the Web. What were your reasons for breeding this litter? I think that's where everyone is getting their panties in a knot, because we don't know the whole story. From that one post, yes, it does make Candy sound like a BYB who helped breed a litter simply because she has a male and her friend has a female of the same breed. I'm interested in knowing what the reasoning behind this is, and if you want to do it over PM, that's fine.
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  #92  
Old 09-24-2005, 10:37 PM
Fran27 Fran27 is offline
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Originally Posted by 2pups622
i dont believe in breeding unless all testing and everything is perfect but do the shelter dogs have papers and health tests no they dont no matter how they were born purposely or not they still need a home thats all that matters i think we should put all this madness into stoping puppymills not one person that know what shes doing im done
Yes, but by going to a shelter you won't encourage irresponsible breeders or puppy mills to breed more. If people keep buying, guess what, they will keep breeding! If you're going to get a dog anyway, don't you think it's better to get it from a place that isn't asking $400 for them, and will just breed more after the litter is sold anyway?

If backyard breeders didn't sell their pups, they would stop breeding, and there wouldn't be as many dogs in shelters. It's as easy as that.
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  #93  
Old 09-24-2005, 10:48 PM
Fran27 Fran27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoom
I'm saying and intending this much nicer than it comes off over the Web. What were your reasons for breeding this litter? I think that's where everyone is getting their panties in a knot, because we don't know the whole story. From that one post, yes, it does make Candy sound like a BYB who helped breed a litter simply because she has a male and her friend has a female of the same breed. I'm interested in knowing what the reasoning behind this is, and if you want to do it over PM, that's fine.

Exactly. People asked questions, they never got answered, so we just never got any proof that she was breeding properly. That's why we assumed she was a backyard breeder. That's all! What personally ticked me off is to breed puppies then needing help finding people to buy them. People shouldn't breed if they don't know people willing to take all the puppies, in my opinion.

And I don't know, I would be proud of selling very healthy pups to good families on a responsible contract, wouldn't you? I can understand that she doesn't want to justify her actions to us, but after all the crazy justifications she's given, and the fact that she asked out help to sell the pups and never answered our questions about whether she had done testings etc, it would probably have saved lots of trouble to just explain that. IF she had. So I guess she didn't answer our question because she knew we were not going to like the answer anyway.

But really, whatever. You're totally right, after all it's not a few more dogs in shelters that will make a difference in the end, especially as long as people keep supporting backyard breeders like some of us do. I just feel sorry for the dogs, but I guess that's just me.
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  #94  
Old 09-24-2005, 11:30 PM
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Just to totally play devil's advocate for a moment...lets say that one day there are no more BYB's or puppymills and everyone gets their dogs from good breeders. Wouldn't evetually the cycle start all over again, people renege(sp?) on their spay/neuter contracts, or wait too long and get an accidental breeding, we start getting random litters of puppies again that start off as cheaper than a real breeder so the people who can't afford a good pup go there, start selling puppies to friends, relatives and people on the street corner for Christmas and then suddenly we're back to where we are now.

Lord, that's a long sentence.
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  #95  
Old 09-25-2005, 12:01 AM
bambina bambina is offline
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that's true if you think about it.
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  #96  
Old 09-25-2005, 12:40 AM
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in regards to show quality dogs:

it doesn't matter whether you just want to "produce pet quality puppies" - pet quality means they may not have the "looks" that will make them a conformation champion, but they still have a right to be as healthy as they possibly can, so they can lead a happy life without crippling disorders. even the most well-planned breeding will generally produce show quality puppies as well as pet quality ones, but these "pet quality" puppies will still far surpass any product of a back yard breeder.

while testing may not be able to make 100% accurate predictions for the future offspring, not testing is definitely worse.
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  #97  
Old 09-25-2005, 07:25 AM
Fran27 Fran27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoom
Just to totally play devil's advocate for a moment...lets say that one day there are no more BYB's or puppymills and everyone gets their dogs from good breeders. Wouldn't evetually the cycle start all over again, people renege(sp?) on their spay/neuter contracts, or wait too long and get an accidental breeding, we start getting random litters of puppies again that start off as cheaper than a real breeder so the people who can't afford a good pup go there, start selling puppies to friends, relatives and people on the street corner for Christmas and then suddenly we're back to where we are now.

Lord, that's a long sentence.

Oh I never claimed that humans were responsible people. Of course, no more puppy mills or backyard breeders is an utopia. It's not going to happen because there will always be selfish and greedy people, or just people who don't like being given advice or be told that they are wrong, and will just keep doing things their way.

But the least we can do is try to educate the ones that don't belong to those categories, so that maybe they learn, if we can prevent even 8 puppies from being born this way, it's still 8 less puppies that may live miserable lives with irresponsible owners or end up in a shelter... and that's without counting the potential offspring.

Someone posted this on another forum.. I know it's just an average, but it's probably not too far off...


DID YOU KNOW:
That when your dog has 6 puppies...


*** Chances of serious complications during delivery are 1 in 4....

*** Chances of a bitch dying during the birthing process are 1 in 20...

*** Chances of an Emergency C-Section are 1 in 10...

*** Chances of loosing at LEAST 1 puppy during delivery are 1 in 3...

*** Chances of loosing at least 1 puppy within the 1st week are 1 in 2...

*** Chances of ALL your PURE-BRED puppies finding PERMANENT & FOREVER homes are about 6%

*** 5 out of your 6 puppies are going to spend their lives with at least 4 DIFFERENT families throughout their lives...

*** 4 out of your 6 puppies are going to bounce from home to home and in and out of Shelters, with the average time spent with one family being 1-2 years...

*** 3 out of your 6 puppies (50%) are going to be euthanized in a shelter, or in an enviroment where there is no one who loves them near them to comfort them...

*** At least 1 out of your 6 puppies is going to be abused, starved or beaten...

*** At least 1 out of your 6 puppies is going to be hit by a car before it's 2nd birthday.

*** At least 2 out of your 6 puppies are going to be dead before they reach 5 years of age...

*** Chances of ONE of your 6 puppies going thru ANY obedience training whatsoever are about 50%...

*** Chances of YOU, the person who planned for your PURE-BRED puppy to be born, being there for your puppy to comfort it, heal it, feed it, love it, and make sure it is safe and protected all it's life.... 0.00001%....
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  #98  
Old 09-25-2005, 08:27 AM
femke femke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordy
in regards to show quality dogs:

it doesn't matter whether you just want to "produce pet quality puppies" - pet quality means they may not have the "looks" that will make them a conformation champion, but they still have a right to be as healthy as they possibly can, so they can lead a happy life without crippling disorders. even the most well-planned breeding will generally produce show quality puppies as well as pet quality ones, but these "pet quality" puppies will still far surpass any product of a back yard breeder.

while testing may not be able to make 100% accurate predictions for the future offspring, not testing is definitely worse.
What I meant with not breeding a pet-quality dog is that with so many dogs in the world the only reason to breed is if your dog is absolutely perfect and you want to better the breed.

I have a pure-bred sheltie. She is garantueed against genetic deseases for the rest of her life, she's very healthy and I love her to death, she is perfect to me in every way even tho she is not show quality. However i would NEVER consider breeding her. She is too big for a sheltie, and therefor pet quality not show quality, I couldn't show her because she is over 16 inches. Now If I were to breed her there is a big chance her pups would turn out too big as well. How is that gonna do the sheltie breed any good? Of course I know that if she was show quality still half of her litter maybe even more would turn out pet quality, but there's a bigger chance of getting pups up to breed standard than if the parents were not show quality.

I dont think anyone means to come off completely harsh. I understand that candy is not responsible for the dogpopulation in the world. I think it just gets to a lot of people that there is still people out there that would contribute to it. When I first got my dog I was totally planning on breeding her. I thought it would be fun and cute to have the puppies around and experience that etc. etc. We wanted two shelties so then in the end I could get to keep one of her pups.

This forum however HAS educated me. I know a lot of stuff now that i didn't know before I got Penny. I am happy that people here are as passionate about things as they are. After reading a lot of posts about back yard breeders and all the dogs in the shelters and stuff I would never again consider breeding my sheltie. So I think that it IS a good thing all these things get posted because some people do listen to it (like me)

There is always gonna be disagreement over subjects like this but I think everyone is entitled to their own oppinion and to express it without others taking it to heart. Candy could have known that she was going to get the kind of replies she did when she posted I haven't been on this forum all that long but I know how a lot of people feel about breeding, it is fine that she posted and wanted to find good homes for her pups but I think she could have known what to expect.

I am however happy that the puppies have found good homes and do hope some of the stuff said has at least given her a new perspective and maybe in the future she won't consider breeding again. If she does then well that is up to her, nothing else anyone can do or say will change her mind then.
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  #99  
Old 09-25-2005, 12:01 PM
Melissa_W Melissa_W is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambina
1st of all i dont know candy722 i just dont belive in the way you guys reacted to her post for help because that could of easly have been me .2nd of all true this is my 1st posting on this forum and after this im not sure what i think of this forum any more.

I came to this forum thinking it would be a good site to learn and meet nice caring and helpful ppl but ther's always a few bad appals in the bunch to ruin the experience.

I still belive in what i said and i know you guys are talking from your heart and i think it is very admirable but you guys arnt respecting her post. good luck candy722 with the pups and dont let them get to you as long as you are breeding properly and for good reasons.
Hey... there is a BIG difference between being mean and being honest. Sometimes people get confused about that. They think if someone is saying something they don't want to hear, then that person must be saying something mean. That's not always the case. It's a cliché, but sometimes the truth hurts. I don't see how anyone is disrespecting her post. I didn’t see any name-calling or personal attacks. There are just people that vehemently disagreed with what she did. I shouldn’t have to automatically agree with her just because she posted. I respectfully disagree with her actions. You’re going to have that on a forum like this. There will always be people who disagree!

BTW, good post femke! I like what you said.
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  #100  
Old 09-25-2005, 12:42 PM
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Ok i have to say I'm w/ Fran 100% as well.
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