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  #31  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:10 PM
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Grammy, some are pointed and very straight along the edge and some, like Lyric had a graceful and slight curve on the edge. It is something to talk over with the breeder. And yes, most reputable breeders here get it taken care of, get the pups through the initial care and do not leave it up to the buyer.
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  #32  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ACooper View Post
Leaving out necrosis and/or other serious medical issues from poor after care, also which leaves scaring and/or ears not standing, not everyone thinks those long show crops are attractive to be fair and honest.

I personally don't, I prefer the look of a shorter crop...........NOT short, just not that extremely long. A nice medium length crop suits my tastes perfectly.

THAT is another reason you should request to see examples of the finished work for that breeder and the vet they use. The length and style should be considered according to your own tastes not necessarily that of the breeder IMO.
In such an unhealthy breed, I hope puppy buyers put aside their ear crop length preferences when it comes to buying from responsible breeders. IMO if someone wants a very short crop, there are plenty of dogs with that ear length in rescue that need homes. You know just as well as I do that responsible breeders' mail goal is not to tailor their dogs to give pet puppy buyers exactly what they "ordered" - they're not going to crop some puppies in a litter differently based on a pet buyer who wants a short crop - what happens if that one puppy with a short crop ends up being the one that's too good for the breeder to sell as a pet?

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Originally Posted by bubbatd View Post
What today is considered a good crop ??? Some I personally feel are too high and pointed . Is there a standard show wise ? Coop , I like those ears !
There is nothing in the breed standard other than basically saying they are "cropped in the normal fashion" - which means no "military" crops, no LGD crops, etc. A crop should always compliment the dog - it's all about balance in this breed - so a more elegant dobe should not have short, cobby ears... just like a nice male with lots of body and bone shouldn't have a crop that looks like it belongs on a bitch. He shouldn't have 2" tall ears with no shape though either.

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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Depends on the breed and lines. Personally I like shorter crops generally. Some show crops are getting a touch too long for my taste. The only breed I'm really interested in that is cropped has an extremely short crop job that doesn't even require posting. I would likely keep it natural though.
I agree, some show crops are over the top - honestly, most Foxfire dobes have ears that are waaaaay too long for my tastes. Kaylee's crop is *almost* too long, but she's an extremely elegant bitch - her ears fit her well. She'd look unbalanced with shorter ears. Ronin and Rocket have shorter, wider ears - both slightly different, but they're BOYS - their crops fit their heads and bodies very well - that's the beauty of having a true expert crop ears.
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  #33  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:40 PM
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Also - it's not just aesthetics. Croppers who crop show (and some working) litters know are highly skilled - recovery times are faster, there is less blood and mess, the edges are cleaner and generally the puppies seem to be happier and recover more quickly.

Also - the obvious pet quality puppies in a litter are often given a wider and/or slightly shorter crop. Not a pet crop - a modified show crop. That way, if those puppies by some miracle DO end up being show quality, the ears are something the breeder can live with.


But if someone wants to go to the vet down the street because they don't like the len
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  #34  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:42 PM
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Why is it so bad to give the new ownder the option? If all responsible breeders cropped them, what happens to the people who rather have natrual ears? Not arguing, just curious.

The one my brother is getting his from not only gave him the option but asked him if he wanted the show-length (realy long, as it was pictured here), medium, or short.
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  #35  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:43 PM
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PS - Ilsa had one of those modified show crops. She was also born with exceptionally short ears,... if her actual ears had been longer, her crop would have been longer.

They also could have been a lot straighter... but hey, she was my first dog. I didn't know what I was doing with her ears - I stopped having them posted before they were truly done. I'll not be making that mistake again.

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  #36  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mi_bella View Post
Why is it so bad to give the new ownder the option? If all responsible breeders cropped them, what happens to the people who rather have natrual ears? Not arguing, just curious.

The one my brother is getting his from not only gave him the option but asked him if he wanted the show-length (realy long, as it was pictured here), medium, or short.
Rescue, or importing a dog from a country where cropping is illegal. Or they find one of the very rare breeders in North America (and perhaps sacrifice in health or temperament) that will send home a puppy with natural ears. (And some of the breeders leaving ears natural are wonderful breeders, but their dogs really aren't right for the typical pet home... a true sport-bred dobe is not something I'd recommend for J.Q. Public!)

In North America, the Doberman is still a cropped breed - our standard makes no allowance for natural ears. Responsible breeders are breeding to the standard... which means their puppies are cropped. They're not breeding to produce pets for the public, their aim is to improve the breed. They're not a business, providing a product. Pet puppies are wonderful byproducts of the responsible breeder's greater goal. I know it's kind of an alien concept, so I understand if it's hard to grasp.

Also - side note on show length ears - some BYBs will say they provide the option of show length, but their idea of show length is even shorter than Ilsa's ears. I don't think so.
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  #37  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SizzleDog View Post
In North America, the Doberman is still a cropped breed - our standard makes no allowance for natural ears. Responsible breeders are breeding to the standard... which means their puppies are cropped. They're not breeding to produce pets for the public, their aim is to improve the breed. They're not a business, providing a product. Pet puppies are wonderful byproducts of the responsible breeder's greater goal. I know it's kind of an alien concept, so I understand if it's hard to grasp.
Haha, it's taking me a while to understand, but I really do try.

So lets say I decided I want to be a breeder (hypothetical. It'll never be my thing.), and I'm really dedicated about improving the breed and all of those things which good breeders do but I don't believe in cropping dogs ears. Because, say, I believe all God's creatures should be left in His image and not altered. (Sorry for going to the extreme, just trying to understand lol) Would leaving my puppies with natrual ears and maybe going as far as requesting to whoever I sell my puppies to do the same (just like you ask for spay/neuter contract) make me a bad breeer?
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  #38  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:10 PM
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I think it's a personal choice, alot of breeders do still crop and if you don't want a crop they won't sell to you. As long as it's done by an experienced vet i really see little harm in doing a crop, but you should make sure your brother follows posting instructions perfectly so everything stays safe and clean.

Just want to point out thought that the Doberman Club of Canada's website states in the standard posted on the site (http://www.dpcc.ca/dpcc-standard.htm):

Quote:
Ears either cropped or uncropped. The upper attachment of the ear, when alert, should be on a level with the top of the skull. If cropped, the ears should be well trimmed and carried erect. If uncropped, they should be small and neat, and set high on the head.
So while it's still only cropped in the states, they do allow uncropped here (and i know were talking the states i just wanted to point out that it's not ALL of North America that doesn't allow natural ears). I don't know if they win or not, but if the dog doesn't win simply because of it's ears being natural that makes me a bit sad but it's not my breed so who am i to say.
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  #39  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:23 PM
SizzleDog SizzleDog is offline
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Originally Posted by mi_bella View Post
Haha, it's taking me a while to understand, but I really do try.

So lets say I decided I want to be a breeder (hypothetical. It'll never be my thing.), and I'm really dedicated about improving the breed and all of those things which good breeders do but I don't believe in cropping dogs ears. Because, say, I believe all God's creatures should be left in His image and not altered. (Sorry for going to the extreme, just trying to understand lol) Would leaving my puppies with natrual ears and maybe going as far as requesting to whoever I sell my puppies to do the same (just like you ask for spay/neuter contract) make me a bad breeer?
The Doberman would probably not be the best breed to get into, then.

There's actually a breeder here in the States that originally from Australia, and she agonized over cropping her litter's ears. Eventually she did end up cropping, because she knew she'd never be able to prove her dogs in our show rings without it. Also, if she didn't crop ears she'd have a difficult time being allowed to breed to most of the stud dogs in the country. So with natural ears, she would be severely limiting her breeding choices, and thus throwing the baby out with the bathwater when it came to breeding for health, temperament and other aspects of conformation.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyPug View Post
I think it's a personal choice, alot of breeders do still crop and if you don't want a crop they won't sell to you. As long as it's done by an experienced vet i really see little harm in doing a crop, but you should make sure your brother follows posting instructions perfectly so everything stays safe and clean.

Just want to point out thought that the Doberman Club of Canada's website states in the standard posted on the site (http://www.dpcc.ca/dpcc-standard.htm):



So while it's still only cropped in the states, they do allow uncropped here (and i know were talking the states i just wanted to point out that it's not ALL of North America that doesn't allow natural ears). I don't know if they win or not, but if the dog doesn't win simply because of it's ears being natural that makes me a bit sad but it's not my breed so who am i to say.
LOL yes, I forgot that the DPCC changed their standard. The majority of breeders in Canada do still crop though - breeders in the Americas will fight tooth and nail to preserve their right to crop.

I think you have a great outlook on it though Mandy - you don't like cropping, so you don't own a cropped breed. I think if more people thought along the same lines, the dog world would be a much less dramatic place.

ETA: In Canada, a dog should not be penalized for having natural ears, since they're mentioned in the standard now. But I wouldn't be surprised if it still happens.
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  #40  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mi_bella View Post
Haha, it's taking me a while to understand, but I really do try.

So lets say I decided I want to be a breeder (hypothetical. It'll never be my thing.), and I'm really dedicated about improving the breed and all of those things which good breeders do but I don't believe in cropping dogs ears. Because, say, I believe all God's creatures should be left in His image and not altered. (Sorry for going to the extreme, just trying to understand lol) Would leaving my puppies with natrual ears and maybe going as far as requesting to whoever I sell my puppies to do the same (just like you ask for spay/neuter contract) make me a bad breeer?
It wouldn't necessarily make you a bad breeder, but it will make it harder for you to finish your dogs in the breed ring. (In America - I won't go into Europe.)

Also, good breeders breed to the breed standard...and you are, right off the bat, not breeding to the standard.

It can be confusing. I know it took me awhile to get to know the ins and outs.

I also agree with what Sizzle said - nearly every breeder that gives you a choice about cropping your dog's ears is most likely a breeder you shouldn't be supporting. A breeder should want every puppy to look it's best when it comes to cropping, and leaving a natural eared puppy to go home with an owner who has to find a vet to do it themselves can (and very often does) lead to a very messy experience - like poor Wrigley's.

This is a pretty heated debate around here - you've gotten off easy!
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