Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog Training Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-23-2010, 03:06 PM
cJw314's Avatar
cJw314 cJw314 is offline
Vicarious Owner
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 82
Default Leerburg's "Pack Structure" video

YouTube - Establishing Pack Structure with the Family Dog (*skip to 3 mins to get past his build-up)

Does this offend you as much as it did me? I couldn't even finish watching the video - and that's saying a lot from me. It's fear mongering and and some might say abuse, in the name of "pack structure demonstration".

__________________
---
chris

"Everything you can imagine is real." -- Pablo Picasso

STOP THE APOSTROPHICAL ABUSE! : http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophe
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-23-2010, 03:22 PM
release the hounds release the hounds is online now
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,046
Default

fear mongering and abuse? I guess you haven't been around too many litters of pups before huh?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-23-2010, 03:23 PM
AGonzalez AGonzalez is offline
Not a lurker
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,702
Default

Seen this video a lot, because it's OLD (old enough to be on VHS at the library so probably atl east 10 years). You should probably know that Leerburg has changed a lot of their training methods to go to mostly clicker training and PR instead of old school training.

But I don't see where you find it so offensive? Those pups aren't afraid of him, they just don't see him as a threat to that chunk of steak he tossed in.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-23-2010, 03:28 PM
Maxy24's Avatar
Maxy24 Maxy24 is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 7,736
Default

That was a good ten minutes of "let's teach our dogs to guard food from each other!" I wouldn't want one of those pups, that first pup just spent a good long time learning that going after dogs that approach his stuff works really well, and then the item did get stolen, so she needs to do even more next time.

It's just another person pretending they know why dogs do things. No the pup isn't growling because he likes food and wants to keep it, nope, DOMINANCE. I bet nearly all of them would have guarded the food if they liked it enough, the only reason one pup wins is because he's more persistent, wants it more than the other pups, is more confident in himself (and his ability to win) than other pups, or has learned already that making a fuss gets him what he wants (I'm sure there are other factors those are just the ones I can think of right now). The others lose because they are more interested in avoiding getting attacked then in getting the food.


It wasn't "sorting out pack structure" it was a dog guarding food. If someone said they had a dominant dog I would have no idea what to tell them, that means nothing, if someone said "my dog is guarding food from other dogs" then I have something to work with, they told me behaviors. dominance is a very useless word, at least with dogs.
__________________
~Erin~



Thank you ~Dixie's Mom~ for my awesome siggy!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-23-2010, 03:29 PM
cJw314's Avatar
cJw314 cJw314 is offline
Vicarious Owner
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 82
Default

It wasn't the actual pups fighting over the meat, but more-so the way that it was presented, I think. The "We haven't fed these pups" and "What would you do if this was your child" type of comments. It felt like a big, staged attack on any anti-dominance/pack structure mindset, to me.

Glad to hear it's an old video - and that Leerburg has changed some of their methods. I remember watching a few of the training dvds a couple of years ago and wondering about "dominating" all the GSDs they're so known for.

I just wanted him to feed the puppies. : (
__________________
---
chris

"Everything you can imagine is real." -- Pablo Picasso

STOP THE APOSTROPHICAL ABUSE! : http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophe
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-23-2010, 03:33 PM
AGonzalez AGonzalez is offline
Not a lurker
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,702
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cJw314 View Post
It wasn't the actual pups fighting over the meat, but more-so the way that it was presented, I think. The "We haven't fed these pups" and "What would you do if this was your child" type of comments. It felt like a big, staged attack on any anti-dominance/pack structure mindset, to me.

Glad to hear it's an old video - and that Leerburg has changed some of their methods. I remember watching a few of the training dvds a couple of years ago and wondering about "dominating" all the GSDs they're so known for.

I just wanted him to feed the puppies. : (
First off, Leerburg isn't breeding GSD's anymore and haven't for awhile.

Those puppies are obviously well fed, why not hop on leerburgs site and go tell him that he doesn't feed his puppies? You ever think that maybe he meant it was about time for the pups to eat and knowing they're getting hungry it was a good time to use them as a demonstration. Not a single one of those pups is anywhere near thin, they obviously eat. I'm sure Ed would be thrilled to know your opinion though, just I'd duck when you get the reply.

Jeez, puppies will fight over a chunk of meat whether they've just eaten or not. How could it be staged? It clearly showed which pup was dominant and how the other pups that aren't are more aggressive to keep the piece of meat because they have to worry about littermates yanking it from them.

Those leerburg videos are made for people that may not be so dog saavy and think that puppies and children mix like soap and water...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-23-2010, 03:54 PM
cJw314's Avatar
cJw314 cJw314 is offline
Vicarious Owner
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 82
Default

ACampbell0304: :blink: Seriously? I was only answering your question - that it felt like fear mongering to me. Sorry if I offended you or your apparent hero Ed with my opinion. Thanks for clearing that up.
__________________
---
chris

"Everything you can imagine is real." -- Pablo Picasso

STOP THE APOSTROPHICAL ABUSE! : http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophe
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-23-2010, 03:57 PM
AGonzalez AGonzalez is offline
Not a lurker
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,702
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cJw314 View Post
ACampbell0304: :blink: Seriously? I was only answering your question - that it felt like fear mongering to me. Sorry if I offended you or your apparent hero Ed with my opinion. Thanks for clearing that up.
Nope Ed Frawley isn't my hero by any stretch. However, saying "feed the puppies" makes it sound like those poor things are starving...which isn't the case by any stretch.

I just find it rather sad, considering Leerburg has his own site and forum on that site, but you'd rather put their kennel down somewhere else instead of asking them directly the purpose of that video? No it's more fun to try to drag someone you obviously know nothing about through the mud.

Seriously?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-23-2010, 04:15 PM
cJw314's Avatar
cJw314 cJw314 is offline
Vicarious Owner
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 82
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACampbell0304 View Post
Nope Ed Frawley isn't my hero by any stretch. However, saying "feed the puppies" makes it sound like those poor things are starving...which isn't the case by any stretch.

I just find it rather sad, considering Leerburg has his own site and forum on that site, but you'd rather put their kennel down somewhere else instead of asking them directly the purpose of that video? No it's more fun to try to drag someone you obviously know nothing about through the mud.

Seriously?
1. I saw the vid on youtube; this forum was open in another tab in my browser. 'nuff said.

2. I'm not dragging anyone's name through the mud; I started a discussion about my concerns over the video which I though of as poor treatment of pups. It felt like an attack against those of us who are anti-dominance/pack leader mentality, so I wanted clarification before I went to the source.

You were right, obviously the pups are not underfed, as anyone else who sees the video can tell for themselves.

I bow to your superior post count; now back away from the chunk of meat!
__________________
---
chris

"Everything you can imagine is real." -- Pablo Picasso

STOP THE APOSTROPHICAL ABUSE! : http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophe
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-23-2010, 04:50 PM
Criosphynx Criosphynx is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,242
Default

I like ed, som' of the older stuff on his site bothers me, BUT that video is not one of those things...if we are talking about the puppy/resource guarding vid (vids don't work here) if I remember correctly he makes good points about bite inhibition and kids getting bit...I think it also illustrates that a puppy can be very aggressive to other dogs, but yet, not go after the handler in the same context (she takes the bone away IIRC)

Alot of the dominance stuff DOES apply in that context...since dominance IS about resources. I don't buy into the whole dominance/alpha thing for training...but it IS correct to say the dog with the bone is dominant (at that moment). (its one of the few contexts where you can use the term) I don't remember the specifics of what ed says in his naration.


Quote:
It wasn't "sorting out pack structure" it was a dog guarding food. If someone said they had a dominant dog I would have no idea what to tell them, that means nothing, if someone said "my dog is guarding food from other dogs" then I have something to work with, they told me behaviors. dominance is a very useless word, at least with dogs.
this is a good point....the dog with the bone is technically dominant in that CONTEXT, but it does not mean its a "dominant dog" or "alpha" if that makes sense. I also hate it when people say "help my dog is dominant" it doesn't mean anything.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:18 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site