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  #41  
Old 03-16-2010, 07:09 PM
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I absolutely agree with you RTH. Many studies are done very poorly. It is important to rule out other variables, for which there are many before coming to a conclusion. That is why I specifically wrote that it is important to see just where these things come from and why I specifically pointed out that I was not pointing to this particular study but in general...one needs to see how the study was done. But I also think it is equally important to not brush off every study that comes along, automatically, without knowing how they did it. Not every scientist or researcher is conducting as faulty information as you might think.
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  #42  
Old 03-16-2010, 07:29 PM
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However.....I still don't think that in this case it is necessary to go through a lot of sophisticated "studies" and experiments to realize that elecric shock causes stress and pain. Its a no brainer to me. And it is not something I would do to my dog. But to each his own. I'm lucky I can train dogs without such impliments. I've never had a dog or come across someone else's dog that I couldn't manage or train without pain. I've handled a lot of extreme cases and positive methods have consistently been successful. So, for a lot of trainers who have found ways to train without shocking dogs, you've got to see where we're coming from. I've gotten explicitly reliable recalls with highly prey driven, some very independent dogs and all the other things people think they need to shock their dogs in order to get. I'd much rather have my dog come because he wants to, not because he wants to avoid punishment. That's just the way it is with a lot of trainers and owners these days. And when people who use shock collars want some instant fix, they're kidding themselves. It certainly doesn't take this reputed, "loooooong" time to train them most things using positive methods. Not at all.
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  #43  
Old 03-16-2010, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
However.....I still don't think that in this case it is necessary to go through a lot of sophisticated "studies" and experiments to realize that elecric shock causes stress and pain. Its a no brainer to me.
I disagree. Science tests the 'obvious' all the time. Sometimes you need to prove the obvious before research can move on to the non obvious. And sometimes people just need proof.

The pro e collar people will tell you its a no brainer that their dog's are fine, and it doesn't harm them. They love their dogs. To think their training method was harmful is an impossible notion. So the don't see (and some I honestly don't think can see) the body language cues.

I will put my positive training up against any e collar training (over several dogs) anyday.

You know i always wanted to do a study where you got 'top' trainers of various methods and then gave them a group of random dogs to train and they had to perform various things at the end of 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month 3 months and 6 months.
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  #44  
Old 03-16-2010, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
I disagree. Science tests the 'obvious' all the time. Sometimes you need to prove the obvious before research can move on to the non obvious. And sometimes people just need proof.
The pro e collar people will tell you its a no brainer that their dog's are fine, and it doesn't harm them. They love their dogs. To think their training method was harmful is an impossible notion. So the don't see (and some I honestly don't think can see) the body language cues.

I will put my positive training up against any e collar training (over several dogs) anyday.

You know i always wanted to do a study where you got 'top' trainers of various methods and then gave them a group of random dogs to train and they had to perform various things at the end of 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month 3 months and 6 months.
Okay...I degress. You're right. I'll put it this way. I personally don't need to see studies to tell me it's just wrong......for me anyhow. I too, with my non-forceful, non-punishing methods would go up against any training methods that use compulsion, force, pain and threats. Actually I do already. People call me when they've ruined their dogs trying to emulate people like Cesar Milan or some variation thereof.

And I do agree with you about people not recognizing what they're seeing in dogs' body language and other signals. They totally miss it all the time. It's too darn bad.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #45  
Old 03-16-2010, 08:49 PM
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lizzybeth727 lizzybeth727 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
The pro e collar people will tell you its a no brainer that their dog's are fine, and it doesn't harm them. They love their dogs. To think their training method was harmful is an impossible notion. So the don't see (and some I honestly don't think can see) the body language cues.
Playing "devil's advocate" here.... one could say the same thing about anti-ecollar people, or clicker trainers, or any-other-method trainers. IMHO, there's so much competetion in the dog training world - not only in sports and such, but even competetion among training businesses for clients - that it's second nature for a trainer to say that their method is better than all other methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
I will put my positive training up against any e collar training (over several dogs) anyday.

You know i always wanted to do a study where you got 'top' trainers of various methods and then gave them a group of random dogs to train and they had to perform various things at the end of 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month 3 months and 6 months.
I do wish something like this existed, I would love to get involved in that as well.
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