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  #31  
Old 03-15-2010, 07:42 PM
Criosphynx Criosphynx is offline
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anyone who has lurked here for any amount of time should know this subjects hits nerves.


next time

Let me google that for you
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  #32  
Old 03-15-2010, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarieG View Post
I can post such a request expecting it not to turn into one because I asked a specific question for studies - not for individual's opinion. In fact, if you review the original post, I even wrote: "Not just anecdotal reviews (or "In my opinion)."

I asked for research for a particular reason. I didn't expect the old "it works /it's abusive" opinions - not that I mind them, it's just the emotional tone that everyone seems to need to take - and they are non-responsive to the original post. The responses, sans one, have not responded to the post. Sorry to have angered you by making the request in a dog forum, but perhaps you have a better idea as to where I might find the answer?

Again, I don't mind the discourse, but to imply that I'm the one that created the debate and emotional level, when my origianl post was clear is a bit unfair.

Can't we all just get along?
Nor did I give an opinion as you had requested, just provided a link.
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  #33  
Old 03-15-2010, 09:20 PM
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As far as the referrences being nothing more than "opinions," and not research "papers," do check the references, (not just here, but wherever you find things) who wrote them, where the research that went into these opinions has it's source. Many of the references come from studies done by esteemed universities like Purdue, heads of behavior departments, well respected science and behavior journals, behaviorists with advanced degrees and so on.

You will always find a member on most any forum who will habitually fall back on the only answer available to him...that is....to consistently and invariably poo poo any study, well done or not in order to make it appear that his own opinion has equal or better validity. Don't let yourself be swayed by such transparent attempts to reduce the good information coming from reliable sources.
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  #34  
Old 03-15-2010, 09:23 PM
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Oh....and regarding getting side tracked away from the instructions given by the orignial poster of a thread, that's typical. LOL. We hardly ever do what we're told here. It's useless to keep this bunch completely and absolutely "on topic."

Hope you stick around nevertheless.
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"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #35  
Old 03-15-2010, 09:37 PM
Criosphynx Criosphynx is offline
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so is it too early for lolcats or is it right about time? Iam conflicted.
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  #36  
Old 03-15-2010, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Criosphynx View Post
so is it too early for lolcats or is it right about time? Iam conflicted.
I think the official protocol is to wait until Post #80, though it's possible that rule only applies in The Fire Hydrant. Dog Training Forum protocol might be a little sooner.
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  #37  
Old 03-16-2010, 03:25 PM
Criosphynx Criosphynx is offline
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ah...too soon then...thankx


carry on :P
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  #38  
Old 03-16-2010, 05:12 PM
release the hounds release the hounds is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post

You will always find a member on most any forum who will habitually fall back on the only answer available to him...that is....to consistently and invariably poo poo any study, well done or not in order to make it appear that his own opinion has equal or better validity. Don't let yourself be swayed by such transparent attempts to reduce the good information coming from reliable sources.
Since I'm sure this is directed at me I'll address it. The first link, is not good information coming from a reliable source. It's biased and reaching.

It's findings have nothing to do with ecollars or no ecollars. it is the variable they chose to look at and cite as the reason for what their biased eyes observed.

You see, as a scientist, or someone that really reads and understands it, picks up on these things in studies.

First off a good reliable study, the people offering the subjective (right off the bat this isn't considered "good" data for an experiement, but I digress) opinions for data would be blinded. they wouldn't be able to observe which group was trained with shock and which ones weren't. This would be done to limit the bias.

This wasn't done, the bias of the Experimenters was free to influence their observations and their findings. Reason number one, and a pretty big reason this study is not a good one.

Another reason, it has a pretty small sample size

another reason, the differences in frequency that they subjectively thru biased eyes, concluded showed more stress behaviors in ecollar trained dogs vs controls are not statistically significant in most cases. If this was a study to get an approval for a new medication it would be tossed, and that's saying something when a drug like claritin that performed really no better than a water pill can get approval you know the bar isn't set very high. But that's another debate.

Another reason this study isn't really valid is that it even attempt to address why there was on average one more tongue flick during the back transport for ecollared dogs vs, non. It doesn't address the dogs backgrounds. Lots of handlers I know that use an ecollar on dogs, are often times used on dogs that have gone thru multiple handlers with poor results were immune to any other type of correction and the ecollar was used.

Sometimes ecollars are used first for training by certain types of trainers.
You know, the ones that kick ass and take names, the ones that need results today, methods be damned. The ones that kick their dogs ass for not sitting fast enough. Now the ecollar has nothing to do with that. They'll end up with stressed out dogs no matter what they're using to train their dog with. They could go leash and collarless and still have stressed out dogs, but this study doesn't account or even consider that.

It doesn't because these "esteemed" researchers like their bias and though they try to veil it thru shoddy "science" anyone with an eye for science literature can see right thru it.

There' many other reasons this study is not valid, none of which have anything to do with me want to poo poo on anything, but I have to get off of here for a bit. maybe I'll get into more later.
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  #39  
Old 03-16-2010, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
Since I'm sure this is directed at me I'll address it. The first link, is not good information coming from a reliable source. It's biased and reaching.

It's findings have nothing to do with ecollars or no ecollars. it is the variable they chose to look at and cite as the reason for what their biased eyes observed.

You see, as a scientist, or someone that really reads and understands it, picks up on these things in studies.

First off a good reliable study, the people offering the subjective (right off the bat this isn't considered "good" data for an experiement, but I digress) opinions for data would be blinded. they wouldn't be able to observe which group was trained with shock and which ones weren't. This would be done to limit the bias.

This wasn't done, the bias of the Experimenters was free to influence their observations and their findings. Reason number one, and a pretty big reason this study is not a good one.

Another reason, it has a pretty small sample size

another reason, the differences in frequency that they subjectively thru biased eyes, concluded showed more stress behaviors in ecollar trained dogs vs controls are not statistically significant in most cases. If this was a study to get an approval for a new medication it would be tossed, and that's saying something when a drug like claritin that performed really no better than a water pill can get approval you know the bar isn't set very high. But that's another debate.

Another reason this study isn't really valid is that it even attempt to address why there was on average one more tongue flick during the back transport for ecollared dogs vs, non. It doesn't address the dogs backgrounds. Lots of handlers I know that use an ecollar on dogs, are often times used on dogs that have gone thru multiple handlers with poor results were immune to any other type of correction and the ecollar was used.

Sometimes ecollars are used first for training by certain types of trainers.
You know, the ones that kick ass and take names, the ones that need results today, methods be damned. The ones that kick their dogs ass for not sitting fast enough. Now the ecollar has nothing to do with that. They'll end up with stressed out dogs no matter what they're using to train their dog with. They could go leash and collarless and still have stressed out dogs, but this study doesn't account or even consider that.

It doesn't because these "esteemed" researchers like their bias and though they try to veil it thru shoddy "science" anyone with an eye for science literature can see right thru it.

There' many other reasons this study is not valid, none of which have anything to do with me want to poo poo on anything, but I have to get off of here for a bit. maybe I'll get into more later.
Excellent, you made some very valid points and given that information certainly gives me another perspective on why that study is bias.

Thanks, this is some of what I was looking for.
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  #40  
Old 03-16-2010, 07:01 PM
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Tsume'sMom Tsume'sMom is offline
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Nice post RTH.
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