Shiloh Shepherds?

[rubysoho]

*I did try to search the forums but I never seem to be able to find anything with search functions on boards...*


I've been interested in these dogs for a few years now. Never met a bad one - but I've only met 3. Can anyone tell me about these dogs? Good, bad and ugly? I am hesitant because I wanted my next dog to be AKC with a longer history but I just cannot support some of the breeds because I do not like where they are going/politics/etc... I do want a breed with a purpose. Whether it is service work, field trials or obedience/agility. And I want to be actively involved with that breed.

I've heard about the politics and a split in the Shiloh Shepherd breeders... but mainly from only one side and I am curious to know about the other side's view. But perhaps that is not good for a public forum...

Thanks in advance!

[BostonBanker]

Well, I admit I've only met four - but I have yet to meet a good one. Three of the four are from the same breeder, and two of the four live in the same house, so it isn't really a decent pool to judge them by.

The major issue I've seen with them is aggression towards humans. One I would actually consider a dangerous dog - at least five bites on records, two to children. His owner claims it is territorial aggression, which may very well be true. But he apparently has claimed about a mile radius around his home as his, because most of the bites have occurred off his actual property.

One had some pretty serious fear aggression issues. She was a show dog originally and I suspect didn't get the exposure to the normal parts of the world when she should have. Her new adoptive family seemed to want to do right by her, but I only saw her through a six week class, so I don't know how she wound up.

Very, very low drive for working in all of them. I would not pick one for any sort of sport or work; in the right hands, they may make quite nice pets. But I've certainly had my image of them ruined by the ones I've met.

Oh, and some links to previous threads:

http:
//www.chazhound.com/forums/t85429/

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t52975/

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t35121/

[Romy]

I've seen a lot of them at the local international dog shows. The ones I have seen there were really nice. They were friendly, stable around the other dogs, and really moderate/balanced as far as their physiques went. Honestly, they were not terribly over sized like I hear people complain about. I remember one beautiful plush coated female who was smaller than a lot of BYB GSDs I see.

There's definitely people out there breeding crap for shilohs. If I was looking into them I'd probably go back to those international shows and talk to those folks, find out if they OFA, etc.

What kinds of sports and things are you wanting to do with one? They didn't strike me as being the kind of dog you could do PP or bite sports with, as their temperaments were a lot more marshmallowy than working shepherds. I imagine a sound shiloh could probably do fine with regular hiking and agility type activities though. It might be interesting to try herding and see if there is any instinct.

[Xandra]

Name an AKC recognized breed and I bet we can find you a good breeder of them. It doesn't matter if 90% of the breed sucks, it doesn't matter if the breed is AKC recognized- good breeders make good dogs.

You're going to have to learn about good breeders and how to identify them no matter which breed you get a dog from.

As for Shiloh shepherds I've never met one. Seems like the breed founder wanted a basterdization of a GSD.

Ok off the breed's "home" website (The breed's name is trademarked? WTF) It says this:
"Do you remember a specific 'German Shepherd' you used to know as a child (or if you are under 40) one that your family or friends told you about? He was the dog with that super, almost human intelligence; that big family protector that was so very gentle with little children, yet would give his life for his master without question.


The dog that would walk you to the school bus, and then show up again exactly on time to wait for your return; the hero that everyone talked about; the one that seemed half human. His personality consisted of Lassie, Strongheart, and Rin Tin Tin all rolled into one.
Well, that dog is still here today, and he is called a SHILOH SHEPHERD™!"
Uhm no folks its called a German Shepherd Dog. Strongheart and Rin Tin Tin were German Shepherds, not overweight fluffers.

It's like every BYB website I have ever seen only it's the Breed Club site.

That site about them should be enough to turn a person. I am insulted on behalf of the German Shepherd breed by the BS on there. "Old style GSD" is described on the homepage of the first licensed breed.

BYB ALARM ANYBODY??


Good breeders will have a site pretty much like this:

Hello! Welcome to our site.

Here are our dogs. They are healthy. Here is proof. This is what we do with them. The dogs we breed to well at this. Here is proof. If you would like to contact us about a puppy, here is our number!

No fluff about the breed being more **~MaGiCaL~** than everything else out there, no height/weight stats posted all over the place and I can't think of one that claims to be the "original" version of another breed.

My advice- stay far, far away, or at least be careful. What drew you to these dogs specifically?

[AGonzalez]

Xandra said about my basic opinion of them. They look like majorly overgrown GSD's, I've yet to see a breeder of them provide proof of health, and if I hear "Old world/Old style GSD's" again I'm going to barf.

If you want an "old style" GSD, there's working dogs.

[rubysoho]

Thanks all, I did some more digging here and managed to find at least 3 or 4 threads. One with PDFs scanned from another board. Very informative. And also gave me a new perspective on the division of the breed. Veeeeeery interesting stuff. And it seems I can find more to back up one side than the other which is helping me wade through the mess.

The breed I settle on will dictate what I want to do with said dog - for the most part. From reading about the SS they are not meant for herding, bite work, etc... I am not sure I want the sharpness that comes along with those activities either (at least the schutzhund). Field trials are something that I find fascinating. I am primarily thinking obedience/agility as a main focus because it is easiest for me to do on a regular schedule. If the temperament is right I'd love the dog to do service work at hospitals (SS's are probably too big because their size might frighten people/children).

BB, your temperament description is definitely different from what I experienced. But then with other breeds I've run in to more bad examples than I can remember good (Chows, GSDs, BMs).

I plan on visiting the breeder(s) - of whatever breed - to meet the dogs and get a better understanding of common temperament traits in the different lines - amongst other things.


Thanks again, all!

[CaliTerp07]

If you're looking for the dog to dictate what you do with it, why not rescue? If you have a clear goal in mind (Schutzhund, agility titles, therapy dog titles), there's definitely merit in picking a specific breed meant to do that activity from a good breeder. But it sounds like you want to get a dog and get to know it, then pick an activity that the dog would thrive in.

We had the same mentality when we got our dog. I live in NoVA as well, and this place has more rescues than anywhere I've ever been in my life, so it was really easy to find a dog that fit our family. Then, as we got to know her, we realized she'd be a perfect fit for agility, and we went from there.

Just a thought. I don't want to derail this thread. You may have specific reasons for wanting an AKC registered dog, I don't know.

[Romy]

I'd recommend settling on what characteristics you want to live with and what you want to do with the dog first, and then finding a breeder who breeds for those traits, or an adult who fits your needs. Regardless of what breed you want.

It's good that you know you don't want a sharp dog. There are breeders with purebred GSDs whose dogs aren't so sharp. The lines I have met that were bred specifically for SAR here in the states had what I would consider prime companion material for most average families wanting an "old farm style" german shepherd. Low defense drive, big barks to alert if someone came in the yard, high drive to please/obedience, physically sound, friendly and stable around people and livestock, etc.

As far as therapy dogs needing to be smaller, that's not necessarily the case. When someone is bedridden, it's kind of nice for the dog's face to be right there for petting. Same thing for folks in wheelchairs. You can accommodate all different sizes in therapy work, first and foremost you need a good temperament.

[Xandra]

Schutzhund dogs don't have to be sharp. One of the biggest complaints people have about Sch is the dog "sees it all as a game." I mean they aren't golden retrievers if that is what you're looking for but they can be gregarious and the outcome depends a lot on socialization when the dog is a pup. Now, unless you specifically seek out otherwise, it will probably have a lot of "drive" and be very energetic, which would be a plus as far as obedience and agility goes, but can be annoying. When you say you're leery of sharpness what situations are you thinking of?

If you're planning on being competitive in agility the Shiloh shepherd is probably too big. Agility is classed by height and the biggest height class is dogs over 22". (I just checked that) So your 30" 100lb + dog is going to be competing against malinois sized things.

Whatever dog you buy you'll buy a good example of the breed, so whether 50% of a breed sucks or not doesn't really matter. Go and meet GOOD examples of GSD's, mals, maybe koolies or kelpies or ACD's.

ETA: Just read your intro. There are a lot of breeds that fit your criteria well, the Shiloh shepherd is quite large, lots of hair and may not do well hiking in the summer heat. Also, sorry if I come off a bit militant. It's not really my intent lol

[BostonBanker]

As I said, I am well aware that my experience comes from a limited pool.

If you're planning on being competitive in agility the Shiloh shepherd is probably too big. Agility is classed by height and the biggest height class is dogs over 22". (I just checked that) So your 30" 100lb + dog is going to be competing against malinois sized things.

Absolutely. If you just want to play around a bit with agility at home, they would be fine I'm sure. I'd have serious concerns about jumping full height with a dog that is that size. I also don't think they ones I've met have the drive to do much as agility dogs - again, assuming you are speaking of competitive agility. I can see them being more successful in obedience.

And I promise to leave it at that. I don't mean to be a spoilsport - I've just had such bad experience with them.