Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog Training Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-21-2010, 07:50 AM
iusemyname iusemyname is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4
Default Why do you think my dog is acting this way?

Hi first post! Kind of long, you've been WARNED!

My dog's a rough collie. I've been blessed and I have a dog with a extremley alpha personality. Maybe I should have really trained him better when he was young... He does anything he wants basiclly. He's in the house a long time, but I take him out on walks 3 times a day, (More then one hour) I'd say he has enough exercise.

He's preety intelligent but he's wierd behaviour is driving us all crazy...

He's barks all the time, at EVERYTHING, bites me, won't hear what I am saying, etc etc. Like he's barking really hard at something and I shout at him to come in the house, which he does, but he keeps barking. Then I yell at him to stop and he kind of growls... Not submissive.

The real thing is that he won't go out with me anymore... Only sometimes. With my mom he goes out all the time, with my sister he also likes to make fun of her, which he did to me too, but I dragged him out anyway and he had no choice but to obey. That was before tho,
Now when I take him out to the street, I want to take him to the park, when he get there, I walk a copule of steps, and I look back and he's still standing there, looking at me. It's like he doesn't want to go out. And if I look at him or say "Come here" he runs away to the house. My house is like one minute away from the park, but he's crazy, he runs through the street, a car could hit him. He only does it to me, the running away stuff, not to my mom. Then I think maybe he doesn't want to go there, maybe he wants to go to a different road. I do that, but like 10 minutes after, we're preety far from home, I look at him ocasionally and if I say "Come here" he does the same thing again, practiclly runs home!! It's like I can't look at him!!
I've tryed everything, I've tryed hitting him (I know, very bad, won't do it again), I've tryed being super nice to him, once I insisted like 30 minutes or more, seriously, whenever he went home, I followed him and petted him and was really nice to him telling him to come in a very sweet voice but nothing, I took him to the park (One minute from home) and he came, then when he steps in the park 10 steps after he goes home... Then I went for him again, calling him in a sweet voice, and he did the same thing. So insisting didn't do anything....

Today he did the same thing, we were like 10 minutes from home, maybe more, I look at him and he stops and looking at me. I tell him to come and he runs away. I shout him to stop (Which he perfectly knows what it means, 100% sure) he doesn't, I run after him a while, then I catch him, and I tell him really loud, "NO, do NOT do that", after that I go to put on his leashe, and he BITES ME!! Kind of hard too. Maybe he tought I was going to hit him? Or it was just a reflex? After that maybe I shouldn't have done this, but I hit him like 2 times. But he doesn't seem to care. It's a kind of big wound... He has bit me before in the past....

He had a trainer when he was young that was absolutley the man... He was very fat, his voice was like pavarotti, and one time he was training my dog not to bark when we passed through this house that had a huge dog too, and I wasn't there, but my dog bit him... That house is near my house, I was home, and all I heard was "NO, BOBBY, BAD DOG" something like that, REALLY LOUD. My dog is still afraid of my trainer, even if I mention his name now, 5 years after, he barks and remembers him. He obyed him always, but the trainer never hit him or anything....

What should I do with my dog? Maybe I screwed up with him, because before whenever he bit me or something I just hitted him. And whenever he didn't hear me, I hit him too. (Not too hard of course). But sometiimes he bites me, and I have hit him hard... Anyways, I don't think he even cares about that, it's hard for him to listen to me, he has a very alpha personality.... What do I do, how do I train him? And why would he do that to me, he's playing me perhaps?

Plus, my dad totally messed up when I try to teach him, whenever I am shouting at him, my dad pets him and says "Don't do that, poor doggy" and is basiclly sweet to him even if he's barking. HE's like "Come here sweety don't bark, bla bla bla" then my dog keeps on barking anyways. And if I shout at him my dad is like "Don't do that poor dog", but I should shout at him am I right? Like say "DON'T DO THAT" in a dominant way, that is obviously alright isn't it?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-21-2010, 08:10 AM
Brattina88 Brattina88 is offline
treehugging clicker freak
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: OH
Posts: 12,779
Default

First Debunking the Dominance Myth

I strongly suggest Nothing in Life is Free and reading the book Amazon.com: Click to Calm - I use NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free) all the time with my dogs(or fosters) when I'm having behavior issues, along with clicker training basic commands (sit, stay, down). Its never too late to train, and many dogs respond very well to the clicker! Personally, I'd ditch the trainer. How can we scold a dog for not obeying a command that was never taught to him in the first place? Dogs don't just automatically "know" these commands, they have to be taught Aggression (on our part) often causes aggression; whether that be SHOUTHING or HITTING . I think your sending your dog mixed messages. Hitting and yelling a dog can make them afraid of you, and with some dogs they will lash out (back) as well. And then the nicey talk to get him to come to you - does he ever look at you like "Yea right, I'm not falling for that?"
Unfortunately it seems you've taught him "come" literally means running the opposite direction, so for the time being he should not be allowed let off leash especially in a park until he has a solid recall. There are some great stickies in the training section about teaching come, &/or emergency recall.

The problem with the shouting when your dog is barking - he probably thinks your joining in!! I know when my dogs are barking (and boy do I have some chain barkers) yelling makes it worse, they bark louder and faster. But if I clap my hands once, and say "quiet" or "enough" (depending on the dog) that works much better! BUT, I've also taught them the quiet command.
Here's a good link for teaching things like "quiet", lost attention, or aggression
ClickerSolutions Training Articles Contents

I hope that helps a little. I know more will chime in with good advice ;P

OH! and Welcome to Chaz!!! I hope we get to see pics of your boy
__________________

Maddie CGC .:. Cocker Spaniel .:. 12 y/o
Bailey CGC .:. Shetland Sheepdog .:. 5 y/o
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-21-2010, 09:25 AM
colliewog's Avatar
colliewog colliewog is offline
Collies&Terriers, Oh My!
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,297
Default

I agree with all of the above as far as stepping stones for training. The main problem is that Collies do not react well to harsh treatment and what you're describing is exactly what they will do if shouted at for correction and hit. What you have to do now is erase the negative memories, which you can't do by being nice ONE DAY. You're going to have to pick a day where you spend no time with him (have someone else take care of him that day), then the next day start with a clean slate. NEVER raise your voice, only speak to him in a normal nice voice (don't "baby talk" either - they know that's not normal and don't appreciate it).

With his barking, this is very common with herding breeds. They get so wound up in the barking and what they were barking at, so bringing him inside didn't make it go away, so he's still going to respond. At that point he's very 'charged up' and will react by biting if you grab him and he doesn't realize it is you. I have Collies and they bark at things outside. I praise them, then quiet them down by using treats and doing a training routine of some sort (something easy like puppy pushups, a series of quick sits/downs using a food lure). This is not punishment and is not done harshly - it's lighthearted and happy, just 'changing the subject'. Collies are notorious alert barkers, so you need to let him know that you're aware of what he's barking at and you'll take care of it. If he thinks the situation is handled, he'll stop. So many Collies will take over in a situation where they don't think the issue has been handled properly, so he may think he's protecting you from whatever he's barking at and you don't realize it.

Good luck with him and don't give up. They cannot be trained harshly without a negative result. Some will 'shutdown' and get fearful, some will run away, some will just back up and stare at you - all of which he's doing! He can be fixed, but you've got to become a different person when you're around him - don't look at him as your submissive, look at him as your companion. They were bred to work WITH humans, so once you develop teamwork, there's nothing like a loyal Collie!!
__________________
Katie + the Workin' Girls

~Smooth Collies~

URO1 CH "Smidgen" RA,WW-RN,CGC,TT,HIC,VC (2/3 CA)
URO2 CH "Dora" RN,CGC,TT,HIC,VC (2/3 CA)

~American Hairless Terriers (coated)~
UFR USR GRCH 'PR' "OE" TT (UKC Total Dog Award winner)
UFR USR GRCH 'PR' "Spud" TT (UKC Total Dog Award winner)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-21-2010, 11:23 AM
lizzybeth727's Avatar
lizzybeth727 lizzybeth727 is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 6,403
Default

First of all, I know it sounds weird, but asking "why" a dog is doing what he's doing is often counterproductive to your training goals. The fact is, we will never know what makes dogs do what they do, what they are thinking, etc., because we can't read their minds. And trying to figure out why they do what they do usually just leads to anthropomorphizing (giving human characteristics to dogs), dominance theories, personalizing too much, etc. Basically, it makes it very difficult for you to look at the situation objectively.

So, instead of asking "why is he doing what he's doing," ask "what can I do to change the behavior?" The good news is, every behavior your dog is doing can be changed with training and behavior protocols.

A good place to start is to ignore behaviors you don't like. Punishing your dog is only harming your relationship, it's not helping the situation; and if it's not helping, why should you keep doing it? So, now, if your dog is barking - ignore it; if you're outside and he's barking, walk into the house and leave him out until he stops barking (and do not leave him outside unsupervised! go out with him and use that play time to build your relationship together). If he bites you - you probably put your hand somewhere where you shouldn't have; it sounds like he's bitten you enough times for you to know now what triggers him to bite, so prevent that from happening by not grabbing at him.... and if he does bite, tell yourself you probably deserved it for trying to grab him at the wrong time, and walk away from him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusemyname View Post
He's in the house a long time, but I take him out on walks 3 times a day, (More then one hour) I'd say he has enough exercise.
Are you saying that you walk him for more than three hours a day? It could be that he's getting TOO much exercise, which is making him even more worked up in the house. Try replacing one of the walks with a training session every day. Training sessions - if done right! - will tire him out mentally rather than physically, which is much more effective with dogs with a lot of energy. Training exercises where he has to really think and figure out on his own what you want him to do will be most effective; check out Karen Pryor Clickertraining, and especially look for articles about capturing and shaping behaviors, those are the two methods that IMO will work best with your situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusemyname View Post
Like he's barking really hard at something and I shout at him to come in the house, which he does, but he keeps barking. Then I yell at him to stop and he kind of growls...
Dogs often mirror us in their emotions and reactions. If you're happy, your dog will feed off of that and also be happy; if you're sad or depressed, your dog will be also; and most importantly for you, if you're upset and yelling, your dog will be upset and yelling as well. (It's called emotional contagion. ) So the best thing to do in this situation, is to act the way you want your dog to act - be calm. If you talk to him, talk in a calm, quiet voice. Take deep breaths to relax yourself, your dog will notice that you're more relaxed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusemyname View Post
The real thing is that he won't go out with me anymore... Only sometimes. With my mom he goes out all the time, with my sister he also likes to make fun of her, which he did to me too, but I dragged him out anyway and he had no choice but to obey.
That doesn't sound like very much fun. Do YOU like it when your parents and other people drag you places you don't feel like going to? Even if it's something you used to enjoy, you will resent the fact that you didn't get a choice in the matter, and it will not be fun. Right now, you need to focus on rebuilding a good relationship with your dog; which means that if there's something he doesn't want to do, DO NOT MAKE HIM DO IT. Otherwise, you are just harming your relationship even more and it is not worth it in the long run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusemyname View Post
Now when I take him out to the street, I want to take him to the park, when he get there, I walk a copule of steps, and I look back and he's still standing there, looking at me. It's like he doesn't want to go out. And if I look at him or say "Come here" he runs away to the house. My house is like one minute away from the park, but he's crazy, he runs through the street, a car could hit him.
1.) NEVER EVER let him off leash outside of a fenced area. ESPECIALLY on a street with cars.

2.) If he doesn't want to go, why are you taking him? Find something that he DOES want to do, and have fun with him that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusemyname View Post
I shout him to stop (Which he perfectly knows what it means, 100% sure) he doesn't, I run after him a while, then I catch him, and I tell him really loud, "NO, do NOT do that", after that I go to put on his leashe, and he BITES ME!! Kind of hard too. Maybe he tought I was going to hit him? Or it was just a reflex? After that maybe I shouldn't have done this, but I hit him like 2 times. But he doesn't seem to care. It's a kind of big wound... He has bit me before in the past....
1.) Why should he stop when you tell him to stop? Dogs do what's in their best interest. He knew that before, when you tell him to stop, bad things happen: he gets put on a leash, he gets yelled at, he has to stop running around and having fun, etc. So why should he do it now??? Isn't it in his best interest to try to run away from you instead?

2.) Dogs can run faster than us, and they have more endurance than we do. If you catch your dog, it's because he LET you catch him. 100% of the time, this is true. So he let you catch him, and then you yelled at him, and then you hit him twice. Do you think, after that, it's more or less likely he will let you catch him next time?

This whole situation could have been prevented if he was on a leash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusemyname View Post
He had a trainer when he was young that was absolutley the man... but my dog bit him...
I would have fired that trainer right then, and never suggested him to anyone else. Dogs bite because they're uncomfortable, and a trainer should be able to recognize an uncomfortable and know how to handle the situation. Some trainers brag about how many times they've been bitten, but I'd never go to one of those trainers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusemyname View Post
What should I do with my dog? Maybe I screwed up with him, because before whenever he bit me or something I just hitted him. And whenever he didn't hear me, I hit him too. (Not too hard of course). But sometiimes he bites me, and I have hit him hard... Anyways, I don't think he even cares about that, it's hard for him to listen to me, he has a very alpha personality.... What do I do, how do I train him? And why would he do that to me, he's playing me perhaps?
STOP HITTING HIM.

Start ignoring and preventing behaviors you don't want.

Start training with him, using methods that are fun for him and teaching behaviors that are fun for you - tricks, like shake, wave, roll over, play dead, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusemyname View Post
I should shout at him am I right? Like say "DON'T DO THAT" in a dominant way, that is obviously alright isn't it?
Look at your dog's behavior, is it getting better or worse since you've yelled at him? Sounds to me like it's getting worse - if nothing else, he's started biting you. That's how you know if a method is effective, is the behavior getting better or worse.


I hope you keep us posted on your progress! Welcome to chaz!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-21-2010, 12:07 PM
TheGoldenRetriever's Avatar
TheGoldenRetriever TheGoldenRetriever is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,299
Default

You have gotten some excellent advice from Brattina, Colliewog, and Lizzybeth.

PLEASE listen to it and please stick around here and learn how to train your dog. Because honestly, YOU ARE CAUSING the very behavior in your dog that is now driving you crazy!!

See, this is a different kind of dog forum than much of what is out there ... but different in a very, very GOOD way. Nobody is going to coddle you by saying "Gee, what a terrible dog you have ... poor, poor you" ... because that is not going to help you OR your dog. Instead, the focus here is "What can YOU do to change your training methods ... to get REAL results?"

If you follow the suggestions you have been given by the three posters above, as well as stick around and learn more ... you absolutely WILL have a much better behaved dog, one that you can enjoy and the dog will enjoy being with you as well.
Good luck to you and your dog, and welcome to Chaz.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-21-2010, 02:44 PM
Tsume'sMom's Avatar
Tsume'sMom Tsume'sMom is offline
Puppy Dog
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 61
Default

Everyone has given good advice. My advice would be this:

If you live in a family setting all members of the family MUST give the dog the same lessons. Having a professional trainer come out and train your entire family to train the dog the same way is really one of the best things you can do for your boy. All the internet advice in the world is nothing when compared to one on one with a trained professional.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-21-2010, 05:17 PM
colliewog's Avatar
colliewog colliewog is offline
Collies&Terriers, Oh My!
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,297
Default

Yes, you are correct that the family members must be consistent and all abide by the same training. But it must be the RIGHT training! Professional or not, the original person that was brought out would not be considered a good choice by what was described.
__________________
Katie + the Workin' Girls

~Smooth Collies~

URO1 CH "Smidgen" RA,WW-RN,CGC,TT,HIC,VC (2/3 CA)
URO2 CH "Dora" RN,CGC,TT,HIC,VC (2/3 CA)

~American Hairless Terriers (coated)~
UFR USR GRCH 'PR' "OE" TT (UKC Total Dog Award winner)
UFR USR GRCH 'PR' "Spud" TT (UKC Total Dog Award winner)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-06-2010, 08:40 AM
iusemyname iusemyname is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4
Default

Hey guys THANKS A BUNCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I read my post again and I was like;: **** what the hell was I thinking, getting mad at the dog? That's totally lame, when I think about it in the past, I now can see I was totally being STUPID!!!! I should have been WAY calmer with him!!

Thanks a lot for your advice guys... I got to read your posts better!

The thing is, I've read some stuff at the internet after posting this, which I have been trying out for like two weeks, but now that I read your posts, I guess all of the stuff I read was WRONG... Too bad, I really tought I've been training my dog well for two weeks but I haven't!! And I was going here to post something else about why is he STILL not listening to me... I guess I now know, after reading your posts!!

Basiclly what I read was that when your dog doesn't do something you tell him to do, you should like punish him (But NOT hit him, I'm never going to do that again in my whole life) by saying like NO, then he gets the message that he mustn't do that. I've been shouting at him for like 2 weeks whenever he does the running away thing... And they also recommended that I should reward him whenever he does something right, by petting him and all that. So whenever my dog DID come to me I've petted him and was all sweet and he seemed really happy after obeying me a copule of times!!

I guess I've made some improvment since he doesn't run away from me anymore, and if he tryes to, if I yell stop he does that. He even comes to be all happy sometimes when I call him!!

Except that he still doesn't listen to me enough... In spite all of that... The first time I read those things in the internet I was like yelling for some 10 minutes for him to come, making a really deep voice and all, some people passed by were looking at me like I was crazy But I got him to come, what a miracle!! Then I petted him and he was real happy and followed me the whole way!!

But the next day it was all back to normal, geez, i call him, he looks at me, and he doesn't really come, he could come immediatly, but he stays around smelling things and makes a long way, gets distarcted, it's like I'm not calling him, he comes to me very slowly and basiclly the way he wants...

If I keep insiting, like with yelling, he tryes to run away sort of, but I think at least that he gets that he can't do.... He never did that again at least... He gives like a few steps back but I yell STOP, he slows down, I have to tell him more twice and he kind of stops and waits for me there, but he doesn't come!! Only if I put him on the leashe and drag him, then he hapilly comes. (At least that is what it seems!)

I'm gonna read your posts again, I've deffinitly improved my dogs atitude in the past weeks, he doesn't run away anymore, if I yell three time for him to come he comes but not convincingy But now that I read your posts i'm not going to yell at him anymore... I wonder what kind of loser posts that kinds of stuff on the internet?! Yell at your dog?!

I'm gonna try a new method now, not sure what, i'll read your posts and maybe let my dog do what he wants for a day or so, until I fifure out how to train him right, I don't want him to fear me I want him to love me Thanks a bunch you guys, I wanna train this dog so well, that would be amazing to my family's ears and nerves
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-06-2010, 08:42 AM
iusemyname iusemyname is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4
Default

By the way screw that trainer, I tought he was really a amazing person, now that I look at it again I'm starting to doubt his methods... my dog has like a mix of fear and obedience to him, but he seems to like him a bit too... I saw him like a month ago with my dog (He hadn't seen him in like 5 or 6 years) and my dog was moving his tail like happy but he was also in his feet barking at him... Don't know if that is right or not...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-06-2010, 08:44 AM
colliewog's Avatar
colliewog colliewog is offline
Collies&Terriers, Oh My!
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,297
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusemyname View Post
By the way screw that trainer, I tought he was really a amazing person, now that I look at it again I'm starting to doubt his methods... ****, my dog has like a mix of fear and obedience to him, but he seems to like him a bit too... I saw him like a month ago with my dog (He hadn't seen him in like 5 or 6 years) and my dog was moving his tail like happy but he was also in his feet barking at him... Don't know if that is right or not...
Dogs wag their tail in agitation too ... he may not be greeting this person.
__________________
Katie + the Workin' Girls

~Smooth Collies~

URO1 CH "Smidgen" RA,WW-RN,CGC,TT,HIC,VC (2/3 CA)
URO2 CH "Dora" RN,CGC,TT,HIC,VC (2/3 CA)

~American Hairless Terriers (coated)~
UFR USR GRCH 'PR' "OE" TT (UKC Total Dog Award winner)
UFR USR GRCH 'PR' "Spud" TT (UKC Total Dog Award winner)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:43 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site