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  #51  
Old 01-19-2010, 12:54 PM
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not to mention that most people who get a puppy to "raise it their way" don't do anything more than the people who have their dogs dumped in shelters. they think by being nice to him they are going to magically have a really nice dog. They have no idea that simply being a good person who doesn't abuse their dog is not enough to prevent aggression and bad behavior. Obviously most of the people on Chaz DO know that and when they get pups it actually does get what it needs to prevent aggression/behavior problems but for most people out there who buy for that reason they end up with a dog that has all the behavior problems that they were trying to avoid by getting a puppy.
These the dog won't let them clip their nails, is scared of men, jumps up, barks at the door, gets over the top excited when it sees other dogs or is aggressive towards other dogs, won't follow commands, pulls on the leash, and so on and so forth. Just owning the dog when it's a puppy doesn't ensure that you are taking it everywhere for socialization, that you handle his paws, eyes, ears, mouth, etc. daily, that you teach him what to do when guests come to the door before he's big enough to knock them over, that you don't allow pulling even though the dog weighs 10 pounds still, etc. MOST people who get dogs for a clean slate don't do anything to prevent the problems they thought they could by owning the dog as a puppy.

Since I volunteer at a shelter I meet tons of dogs who were strays or who were given up because their owners lost their home, died, got divorced (not sure why that makes you give up the dog but whatever), couldn't give him enough exercise, etc. We rarely have problem dogs. Maybe one shy dog a month (we get two loads of about 20 dogs each month), then the rest are just nice family dogs. the only thing I'd say nearly they all do is jump up, beyond that very few behavior problems. I mean some are really high energy but that's not a behavior problem, it just means a chunk of the population can't adopt him because they work too much or can't give him enough exercise. the adult dogs are definitely not the one who leave my hands ripped up or try to eat the visitors shoes and expensive purses lol. I suppose the only real big difference is that instead of a small dog (puppy) with no training you have a big dog with no training (unless it's a small breed adult dog) so the jumping up and leash pulling is more annoying, it would have got annoying with the pup anyways but not until you were already in love.

So for some people there is a behavior benefit in getting a puppy but for other people (who are not going to do all the things necessary to prevent future problems) they just think they are making a difference. Plus with an adult you are able to choose the dogs who are compatible with your life, they are what they are for the most part. afterall all the adults in the shelters were someone's "clean slate" puppy at some point.
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  #52  
Old 01-19-2010, 12:57 PM
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getting an adult from a breeder was perfect for me, and at this point I doubt I will ever go the "puppy route" ever again. Romeo is an adult well mannered, potty trained, leash trained lil cutie lol I jumped at the chance to not have to deal with 3 in the morning potty breaks, sleepless nights, etc.. etc.. and he fit in perfectly with me from the moment he arrived. From now on, looking at breeders for an adult dog will always be the best option if im looking for another

as for why most people dont do it, IMO they think that an adult dog that needs a home MUST have problems. they want a puppy so that they can raise it themselves, start clean.

after my foster litter, I by no means EVER want to go the puppy route again. those 4 little guys drove me INSANE, it was more than worth it.. but still lol



I hate to also state the obvious but.. puppies are cute. not to say adult dogs aren't but most often people dream about that cute fat little puppy they can watch grow up
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  #53  
Old 01-19-2010, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elegy View Post
but that's not a clean slate. if puppies truly were clean slates, there'd be no benefit (so far as temperament, etc goes) to going to a good breeder.
You are right in the sense that the "Slate" does have some stuff on it as the puppy is already 8-10weeks old. What I guess I mean is that a puppy with good genetics has a mostly clean "Slate" and that slate doesn't have any bumps or dimples in it; making it easier to write on it. Also with good genetics that "Slate" is less likely to crack or splinter......

If you want a dog with strong nerves then genetics really does play a role. Talk to anyone who breeds/trains Protection dogs or hunting dogs. Genetics isn't everything but IMHO I think it is half of the equation. Also puppies from a good breeder also have a lot better imprinting for the first 8 weeks than say a puppy that was born under a 72 Gremlin in a junkyard.
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  #54  
Old 01-19-2010, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxy24 View Post
not to mention that most people who get a puppy to "raise it their way" don't do anything more than the people who have their dogs dumped in shelters. they think by being nice to him they are going to magically have a really nice dog. They have no idea that simply being a good person who doesn't abuse their dog is not enough to prevent aggression and bad behavior. Obviously most of the people on Chaz DO know that and when they get pups it actually does get what it needs to prevent aggression/behavior problems but for most people out there who buy for that reason they end up with a dog that has all the behavior problems that they were trying to avoid by getting a puppy.
Erin, I believe you're absolutely correct. But to varying degrees we're all "dog nerds" here at Chaz. The fact that Purina corners the market in pet food is one indication showing the majority believes it's the best out there. I wouldn't expect that same majority to know much more about proper training.

In most cases I don't think the lack of proper training is intentional or malicious in any way. (Clarifying of course that this only refers to people who are not blatantly abusing their pets.) I believe it's a matter of most people having good intentions, but just plain not knowing better.

So many believe outright myths or go by conventional wisdom, which is often not very wise but people persist in believing it anyway. It's all they know. Either that or it's what their family/friends have always done. They rationalize that the dogs they grew up with "weren't so bad" even if they weren't anywhere near as well-behaved as a well-trained adult dog. Other people lose patience too quickly, wondering why the puppy "still doesn't get it" after nothing more than a few inconsistent repetitions. (Those second types conveniently forget that human children also need to be told the same things a few hundred times. )

I dunno, maybe I still have too much faith in human nature. (There's still a chance I can lose whatever's left when I get old.) It's just that I see so many dogs that really aren't very well-behaved, but their families love them anyway and don't give them up. That would be the majority of dogs in my neighborhood, along with other places I have lived.

In this neighborhood and others where she and I lived, my heart heart dog Cheyenne (R.I.P. baby girl) was considered some kind of 'wonder dog' ... LOL. Same with our wolf hybrid Spike (R.I.P. sweetie). Of course they were to me, but if I try hard to look at it objectively I know that they were very well trained and that is what most people were reacting to. Because they just don't know that a lot of dogs can behave very well with proper training and consistency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amstaffer View Post
You are right in the sense that the "Slate" does have some stuff on it as the puppy is already 8-10weeks old. What I guess I mean is that a puppy with good genetics has a mostly clean "Slate" and that slate doesn't have any bumps or dimples in it; making it easier to write on it. Also with good genetics that "Slate" is less likely to crack or splinter......
But what Elegy is saying (at least how I read those posts) is that it's much more than 'imprinting' ... that right from the moment of birth (or conception if you will) that it's never truly a case of tabula rasa.

There have been recent studies that have proven that human temperament is to some degree genetically determined, much more so than previously thought. Not so much capacity for learning ... but the basic temperament traits themselves. Since they are also sentient, living mammals there's little reason to believe it would be any different in dogs.
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  #55  
Old 01-19-2010, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amstaffer View Post
You are right in the sense that the "Slate" does have some stuff on it as the puppy is already 8-10weeks old. What I guess I mean is that a puppy with good genetics has a mostly clean "Slate" and that slate doesn't have any bumps or dimples in it; making it easier to write on it. Also with good genetics that "Slate" is less likely to crack or splinter......

If you want a dog with strong nerves then genetics really does play a role. Talk to anyone who breeds/trains Protection dogs or hunting dogs. Genetics isn't everything but IMHO I think it is half of the equation. Also puppies from a good breeder also have a lot better imprinting for the first 8 weeks than say a puppy that was born under a 72 Gremlin in a junkyard.
With dogs I think genetics is AT LEAST 1/2 the picture temperament wise. But yes what you do in those first few weeks is important..
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