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Old 01-12-2010, 11:27 PM
Gguevara Gguevara is offline
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Default Koehler training

Short question, is koehler training basically all corrections, choke chains etc?
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Old 01-13-2010, 12:01 AM
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lizzybeth727 lizzybeth727 is offline
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Depends on how you look at it, I guess.

Koehler Training Website:
Dog Management Systems presents
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Old 01-13-2010, 12:05 AM
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Traditional Koehler how I remember it (reading it a few years ago) and seeing Koehler trainers there was never any p+ But not all of it is 'mean'. Its not something I would use training style wise, even the less mean bits. Part of the idea behind it is good, but to me its not a good application of those ideas.
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Old 01-13-2010, 01:13 AM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
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There is no positive reinforcement as far as I remember. It's not all bad though. It certainly gets results.

There are parts of it I use. There are parts I would consider using. And of course there are parts I would never use.
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Old 01-13-2010, 01:18 AM
Maura Maura is offline
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I've read two of his books. You have to understand that at the time he was training we didn't have the dog psychology information that we have today, so he was operating under certain misconceptions. That said, most trainers who use a choker do not actually follow his method. His method was to teach the dog what you want him to do, usually through modeling. After that, he used the choker to make corrections on a dog who presumably knew what he was supposed to do. Koehler did not use the choker to make the dog figure out what he had to do to avoid getting popped by the chain.

Koehler did not understand about generalizing, that dogs do not generalize so that's why they behave properly at home, but don't when they get to training class. You have to reteach them. If you read his books you can glean some very useful advice. I learned about long line work from reading his books, though I use a harness rather than a slip collar. He was right, long line work greatly improves at home respect.
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Old 01-13-2010, 08:18 AM
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We've had real behavioral science since much further back than Koehler. People just didn't make use of it because they were clinging relentlessly (and many still do) to wolf pack theory. And incorrect wolf pack theory at that. Thorndike, Lorenz, Pavlov and Skinner and more. Skinner actually recommended, specifically, a cricket toy (clicker) for dog trainers. The idea of operant/classical conditioning was there for the taking, but didn't really get going till later.

I read Koehler's book back in the 70s or early 80s and it sickened me, even though I trained in a more compulsive way back then.
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Old 01-13-2010, 09:13 AM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gguevara View Post
Short question, is koehler training basically all corrections, choke chains etc?
short answer, NO.

I don't know if there's ever been someone that has been talked about and vilified more than Koehler by people that have never read, nor ever attempted to actually read what he said, or think about it. They just repeat like parrots what someone else said.
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Old 01-13-2010, 10:48 AM
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[QUOTE=release the hounds;1534807]short answer, NO.

I don't know if there's ever been someone that has been talked about and vilified more than Koehler by people that have never read, nor ever attempted to actually read what he said, or think about it. They just repeat like parrots what someone else said.[/QUOTE]

I don't agree with this at all, there have been 6 replies to the OP's question, 7 if you include mine. Of those replies, 5 (including myself ), people have read it and I believe have a very good understanding of the methods. Not to mention the number of people that used his methods and lived my them for many years and now don't.
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Old 01-13-2010, 10:57 AM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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so, one thread out of thousands on the net is your sample size? i'm actually surprised this thread has so few responses. I guess Koehler is old hat now a few years ago, this thread probably would have drawn the same type response as a certain guy does today.

His teachings weren't perfect by any means, but there is much more in there, that sound training principles can be based on, even by today's standards.
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Old 01-13-2010, 11:32 AM
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Yes absolutely, actually more so. Because I do believe that people are better educated today in how to train animals/dogs. Especially considering how many people compete now compared to 40 years ago. And the simple fact that there is so much readily available information.
I also wasn't using this one thread as an example but thinking of the number of people that I know along with the countless threads on the net concerning this topic, so it wasn't based on this one little thread.

I also believe that no one method or any one person is perfect and that a person can read Koelher and take some good out of it, as long as that isn't the ONLY thing they read and train by. I don't agree with many of the methods of CM either, but that also doesn't mean everything he does is wrong. And I do respect what he has done for the Pitties.
I often have working spots or audit seminars, I may only take one or two things away from that seminar and I may not agree with the methods of the presentor but that doesn't mean I don't tuck as much of that information away as possible to either use, not use or to modify it to my own uses.
One of my fav pass times is finding very old training/breeding books on horses and dogs etc and I do read them. Some of the methods are very scary and down right cruel but there is still some very good information to be had in them.
One of my fav old breeding books was written in the early 1900's, some very valueable information on how to whelp etc, especially considering they didn't have Vets then around every corner.

So my point to all this is simple, the more information you can obtain from as many different sources as possible is never a bad thing. The key is being educated enough to sort through it and not believing everything as gospel.
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