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Old 01-05-2010, 02:56 PM
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ACooper ACooper is offline
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Default White GSD, Dobermans, and Boxers

I am starting this thread in regards to the other misconception thread so as not to take it over, LOL

So far, we are discussing White GSD and why they can't be shown in the ring.

These are some quotes from the other thread, so you know what is going on, LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post
I don't think there have been any documented albino GSDs. Albino means they have zero pigment at all, not just white fur. White GSDs have black eyes, and black pigment on their noses, eyes and lips. The following is quoted from the White German Shepherd Dog breed standard, emphasis mine:



In dobes, the whites are albino. Which is where the nasty health problems come in.

Albino dobe:


White shepherd, notice the strong pigment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post
It's odd too, because they are allowed to compete and title in other events. Tracking, ob, etc. And their offspring are registrable. I mean, if you bred a nice white dog to a nice colored, in theory the puppies would do just as well in the ring as ones from purely colored lines. The white is recessive.
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Originally Posted by ACooper View Post
Yes, that is what I thought too Romy.......White GSD does not = Albino. And THAT is where the confusion for me came in, LOL. If a White GSD is NOT albino (which they aren't) then WHY aren't they allowed to show in the ring? (because I never knew they couldn't) It isn't a mutant, or birth defect, no other health issues associated with the white coat color for them (I assume) so what is the show ring issues then I wonder?

Because for the doberman at least, THAT is the "argument" against showing, reproducing, etc. Albinoism is NOT a specific color, but a lack there of and caused by a mutant gene and also brings more health issues to the table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maura
You all must live in a different part of the country from me, because nobody has mentioned the miniature Labrador Retriever or miniature Dalmatian.

White GSDs, Boxers, and Dobies are not allowed in the ring because the white (yellow in Dobies) is associated with some genetic problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACooper View Post
Can you elaborate on the genetic problems for white GSD? I know all about the dobes, (not yellow ones though, that's a new one) but I am unaware of genetic issues in white gsd.

And so as not to jack this thread further, I will make another thread
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Old 01-05-2010, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maura
You all must live in a different part of the country from me, because nobody has mentioned the miniature Labrador Retriever or miniature Dalmatian.

White GSDs, Boxers, and Dobies are not allowed in the ring because the white (yellow in Dobies) is associated with some genetic problems.
Now this one I had some questions about.

1.) WHAT is a yellow doberman? Never heard of such a thing, LOL

2.) Can you elaborate a little more on those genetic issues found in white GSD? I wasn't aware of any, and am STILL curious as to WHY they can't be shown in the ring.
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Old 01-05-2010, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACooper View Post
Now this one I had some questions about.

1.) WHAT is a yellow doberman? Never heard of such a thing, LOL
Maybe she means Fawn ?

*read it wrong nevermind!!*
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Old 01-05-2010, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACooper View Post
Now this one I had some questions about.

1.) WHAT is a yellow doberman? Never heard of such a thing, LOL

2.) Can you elaborate a little more on those genetic issues found in white GSD? I wasn't aware of any, and am STILL curious as to WHY they can't be shown in the ring.

Not sure about the yellow doberman, never heard of that one... but as far as the White GSD and not being allowed to show them in conformation.... you have to go to the breed standard for that one.

It may have NOTHING what so ever to do with health. There are several breeds out there that come in colors that are not allowed to be shown, per the breed standard. It (often) has nothing to do with any health issues associated with that color, it has to do with the original dogs (of whatever breed) and the standard that was created for that breed when the breed was created, and the breeds parent club controls whether to change that part of the standard to include other, undesirable colors..

Certain standards specifically have a color disqualification, or size or any other disqualification. Though not all standards are like this.

The collie standard for instance, there has been a HUGE debate over the past year among the Collie people and the CCA as to whether or not Sable Merles should be added to the standard for allowed colors, currently the allowed colors are sable and white, blue merle, tri-color and White (color headed white)..

However, there is not a color disqualification in the Collie breed standard... While sable merles are not mentioned in the standard for allowed colors, there are many sable merles that are shown and finished, because there is no DQ for it.... sure some judges will excuse an obvious sable merle, but most don't seem to mind them... the #1 ranked smooth collie for 2008 was a sable merle.

Sable Merles have no health issues associated with the color... than any of the others have (other than breeding merle x merle)....

On the other hand in Europe White collies (color headed whites) are not allowed to be shown (are not mentioned in their standard)... and most won't breed them, however in the US and Canada color headed whites are allowed to be shown and are obviously bred. Again there is no health issue associated with the color headed whites (not to be confused with Double Dilutes).... The European breeders I've talked to are also very against sable merles, where as they are more accepted in North America, and sable merles are listed in the Canadian breed standard.
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Old 01-05-2010, 03:20 PM
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Okay, I had to go edit my other reply, pasting it in here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maura View Post
White GSDs, Boxers, and Dobies are not allowed in the ring because the white (yellow in Dobies) is associated with some genetic problems.
That's the thing though. In GSDs, white has zero association with genetic probs. Zero. It was thought to be, but that has been proven false. They are no more likely to have problems than a samoyed. Dobies have problems because they are albino. I don't know much about white boxers so won't comment on that.

Also, white has existed within the german shepherd breed since it was created (the grandsire of a founding dog was white, if I remember right. One of the GSD gurus on here will correct me if I'm wrong. )

So there isn't any reason to exclude the color based on possible outcrossing, like you would with merle in a breed where merle didn't always exist (chihuahuas come to mind).

It's interesting that in the UKC GSD breed standard, white is allowed. I think they can also be dual registered with the white shepherd registry? Have to check up on that. The only color disqualification in the UKC ring is albino, which white shepherds are not.
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Old 01-05-2010, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post
I don't know much about white boxers so won't comment on that.
From what i've heard... White boxers can be genetically sound and it's not even a mutation, just a colour that is dangerous. If you breed a white to a white it can potentially be dangerous. There's a higher incidence of skin issues, blindness, deafness, and even still borns when breeding white to white. Kinda like that one coat colour in collies/shelties that result in bad things (double dilutes right?) but some can potentially come out fine.

Don't know if it's all true, i'm no boxer expert. But that's what i've gleaned from an ex-boxer breeder who had a white in her stock.
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Old 01-05-2010, 04:39 PM
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White GSD's don't have any inherent problems because of the coat color. There's lots of misconceptions out there about them. and the great grandsire of Horand was white, but white GSD's were not really part of the GSD breed, not much.

Lots of people say they were exluded because of the "Nazi's" . I don't really buy that as the founder of the breed and SV stated long before the nazi's ever did anything in Germany that even though no good dog can be a bad color, white's were not be selected for, and in fact should be excluded from breeding.

So almost from the begining whites were frowned upon for breeding. Lots of testing and lots of work went into creating the breed and the facts remain the same that other than the US where dog fanciers kind of took over and kept whites going, the working and serious GSD's were not white.

So while there are some now that are working towards breeding good WGSD's or Swiss whatever, most have been selected based upon some recessive genes alone for many generations by breeders not following the working standard that created a noble breed. Breeding for such narrow traits results in poor quality dogs. But i'm not so sure the quality is any less than what most GSD breeder's in this country are producing. Most don't even know their own dogs, let alone know about breeding, or what a GSD is or should be.
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Old 01-05-2010, 04:46 PM
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I can remember when white boxers were put down at whelp . Friends of mine kept one but never bred it . Rescuing is one thing ~ breeding is another .
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:01 PM
AGonzalez AGonzalez is offline
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White GSD's are undesireable for things like police work because, well let's face it, a white dog stands out at night...not exactly what you want when you're trying to raid a drug dealers house, lol.

I'll have to get a picture of my mom's wolf hybrid that we had when I was growing up. He was white GSD crossed on a black and tan GSD/wolf mixed bitch. So while very little wolf in him, he was interesting looking. White, bigger than a GSD, yellow eyes...and pink pigmented nose. I remember we used tattoo ink on his nose in the summer since he sunburned so bad.

That being said, I cannot think of any health concerns that are prevalent in white GSD's specifically, but affect the breed as a whole.
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:09 PM
sammgirl sammgirl is offline
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I posted exactly what ACampbell said with out seeing what she typed.

I totally agree!
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