Protection Dog

[Artfish]

not to anyone in particular, but working dogmen don't put faith in a dog until it actually does the job & PROVES it can & WILL.

It's tough to find the real deal breeders and trainers, too. Tougher still to begin to understand that proving a dog may go way beyond that of titling and so looking at parents, pedigrees, and titles may be very misleading...

YouTube - 2008 USA Sieger Show Working Males Cat 40-44
Would you rely upon dog #40? He is Schutzhund III titled but is clearly displaying avoidance and stress behaviors. I doubt many folks of ill repute would approach me if this dog was at the other end of my leash but I would not put an ounce of faith in him for protection. And the dog that goes for the helper's leg, hoo boy.... wouldn't want to train him in protection. That could be a liability begging to happen.

I suspect things may be similar in other breeds. Too often, owners do have "kennel blindness" and think their dog will protect through anything. Some will head for the hills on an angry glance and loud yell, some will stand ground but turn tail when the attacker fights the dog, and those amazing some will stick to the fight regardless of what befalls the dog, to the point of sacrificing its own life. The point is, do NOT risk your own life to figure out into which category your dog falls (this is directed not necessarily to the OP but to anyone who may read this).

Good luck in the search! Have you also thought of giant schnauzers or beaucerons?

Beauceron, Information and Pictures, Beaucerons

[DanL]

Originally Posted by JennSLK

What is with people NOT reading posts?!

Dan I said 99% of show dobes I know would protect you if needed. They wouldnt nessisarily be able to do PP sport, but they would atack an intruder or atacker.

I read your post, and I'd bet that you are wrong unless you are hanging around with the rarely found Euro dobie, but those lines are not found at dog shows. You insinuated that someone could go out and get a show line dobie and it would be protective, which isn't true.

100% of the dobies I have ever seen will not protect. How's that for a blanket statement?

[~Tucker&Me~]

Originally Posted by Pops2

tucker & me
a good working heeler (not necessarily an AKC dog) is A LOT of dog. my dad's new wife has one that got his jaw broke & continued to work the horses until they were where they needed to be. they didn't realize his jaw was broke until after when he wouldn't eat. he is also hair triggered and they have to be super careful. OTH they can leave their trucks unlocked w/ the keys in the ignition while they go out to dinner & the truck WILL be there when they come back. he is all working stock off a ranch in TX and would put some of the mals & gsds i've seen in the military to shame.

Ok, perhaps I am overestimating the mal/dutchie then. I have been around AKC ACDs and ACDs from working lines. And I know they pack a hard punch; I have seen it firsthand. Unless the dogs I have met aren't good examples of working line ACDs, then I understand where you are coming from. From the things I have read however, it just sounded like mals/dutchies were a whole different level.

Originally Posted by FoxyWench

they will usually avoid strangers, least as far as ive been told, IF theyve been properly bred, raised ect they shouldnt be "unprovoked agressive"
there not nessicarily going to greet a stranger with a wagging tail...of the owners ive talked to they all say that their dogs are ok with strangers IF they are properly introduced.

most of them however will NEVER go out of their way to interact with strangers on any level.

again, these dogs should not be agressive unprovoked...
if that makes sense...

Thank you, that cleared up a lot for me and makes perfect sense

[JennSLK]

Because the one I personaly know, and hang out with, will, without a doupt protect you. Some of them have proven it, and some, judging by thier temperment will. Not all show dogs are sucks. The ones I personaly know, in my group of show friends actually have decent tempements. I never once said all show dobies, but the ones in my circle of friends will.

Jazz didnt have a proper temperment, but she would have and did protect me from harm. But there is a difference between a pet who would protect if needed, and one who could do Schuzhund (sp?) or IPO. I dont think the OP wants a sport dog, just a family pet.

[~Tucker&Me~]

Originally Posted by Artfish

Good luck in the search! Have you also thought of giant schnauzers or beaucerons?

Beauceron, Information and Pictures, Beaucerons

Thank you! And no, I had not considered Giant Schnauzers. I will be honest, I am not a huge fan of the Schnauzer but I have only met poor examples, so I will give them a chance. I did consider a Beauceron, however I met a woman at a show with one and she said it was incredibly hard to find one that had the correct temperament. She told me that unfortunately, most are quite nervous and spooky. Sub-consciously I never considered them but I suppose if I knew I could find good examples I would look more closely at the breed.

[corgipower]

Originally Posted by ~Tucker&Me~

From the things I have read however, it just sounded like mals/dutchies were a whole different level.

I'm not familiar with dutchies and have read things from all over the spectrum about the breed...but malis? yep. They are a whole different level. Not so much in terms of drive, but because you have to add in the speed. Malis will act before you even know what they're responding to.

[~Tucker&Me~]

Originally Posted by JennSLK

I dont think the OP wants a sport dog, just a family pet.

I am not particularly interested in doing sports. I have my border collie for that But yes, I am aiming more for a well-rounded dog I could trust around people/kids, but that also would be intimidating to intruders and could (hopefully) show some teeth if he/she felt there was a threat.

[~Tucker&Me~]

Originally Posted by corgipower

I'm not familiar with dutchies and have read things from all over the spectrum about the breed...but malis? yep. They are a whole different level. Not so much in terms of drive, but because you have to add in the speed. Malis will act before you even know what they're responding to.

I also have read tons of contradictory things on dutchies, which is why I made this thread. I wanted some clarification lol.

Ok, so in terms of speed they are faster then BC/ACD? That would be the main difference?

[stardogs]

If you're looking for an adult as a visual deterrent a rescue dog could be screened to have the traits you want and would likely be more easily available than an adult breeder dog. You've narrowed down breeds, so you could easily start talking to rescue about the frequency of dogs entering their program that would meet your needs.

In general, any big, dark dog with good obedience skills and a cue to bark when asked (I've trained "Steady" myself) can do what you're looking for and since you're not necessarily looking to do sports with this dog, you might be better off with a mix of some sort rather than a specific breed, especially when the breeds you listed are pretty high octane in general.

The foster that I've had that seemed to scare people most was a young dark blue ACD - friendly as all get out but had piercing eyes and was very dark so they stood out. My parents' Rottie mix (looks like a rottie with a tail and only 45-50lbs lol) also tends to get a bit more attention. My Maggie, BC/ACD mix, has tricked meter readers into thinking we had a GSD just by her bark (he couldn't see all 33lbs of her at the time lol), and Kes seems to have a similarly loud and low bark.

When people ask about obtaining a dog for visual deterrent I always tell them to look for the right individual vs. a specific breed.

[Zoom]

Beaucerons are very hit and miss. I used to work with the lady who has what are considered to be some of the better lines in this country. One of her dogs was formally trained in protection and made for a great visual deterrent, especially when he started growling. But that was as far as he would go when actually pushed, as they found out the hard one way day. The dog was in their van, supposedly on guard, and someone still stole the van with the dog in it. They later recovered both, but her faith in her dog was strongly shaken.