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  #21  
Old 01-07-2010, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sammgirl View Post
DM is the latest "baddie" in the breed that people are testing for. My puppy could be DM clear or a carrier (but not affected) and she will be tested upon her arrival here.

Our hope is that she is DM clear, but one never knows.
Just curious what DM is for your breed?? We have a skin/muscle disease in Collies that we call DM, but there is not test for it -- it's actually called Dermatomyositis.

-- Oh, never mind, I think I might have found the answer to my question.


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Originally Posted by Romy View Post
Or if I was working with collies, it would be worth it to know specifically about all the puppies eyes, not just ones in breeding or show homes. I wouldn't be as concerned with every puppy's elbows and stuff, not typically an issue.
All Collie puppies, regardless of pet or show quality should have their eyes tested by a certificated vet ophthalmologist, by the breeder BEFORE they leave the breeders home. This should be done around 6-7 weeks of age. The cost of this should not be added to the puppy purchase price, as I feel this is the very basic test the breeder should do, if they are going to breed Collies. The place I take my puppies, for a litter of 5 (what my litters usually are) it's about $200, not to bad..

I know there are "breeders" out there that don't test anything but what they are keeping, or don't test any of the puppies at all... or breeders who add the cost of CERF checks for CEA to the cost of the puppy. I wouldn't call these reputable breeders though! The ones I've seen who do this are the ones who are breeding badly bred, pet quality dogs!

As far as rechecking as adults... it can be a good idea to do it around 5-6 yrs of age just to make sure there is nothing else going on with the eyes.... but as far as CEA goes, what they have as a puppy, is what they will be for the rest of their life. If they are normal eyed, or even CRC as a puppy, that is all they will ever been... with regards to CEA. Now a VERY large coloboma could later turn into a detached retina, but I've never had any eye checks like that before. In the past I have had, on occasion (I think 3 puppies in total) tiny pin point colobomas, but they are so small the dog is not at risk for detached retina, and they are in pet homes, as nothing with a coloboma will be bred.... however I haven't had any colobomas in any of my puppies or litters for several years now!

Yes, PRA is seen in the breed, in certain lines, but isn't terribly common, but now there is a DNA test for it, so there is no reason to do yearly CERFs to look for PRA affected dogs, if you do the DNA test once.
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  #22  
Old 01-07-2010, 10:15 AM
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hmm what is the typical cost for a collie puppy? Why is it assumed its not ok for the breeder to try to break even on a litter? (assuming they aren't charging an arm and a leg)

I don't get the "its not ok to pass the cost along" So what things ARE ok to pass the cost along? Showing, stud fee, food, microchipping, shots? I mean shots are a basic need for pups.. do we not expect that cost to be added to the price of the pup? To me it all boils down to if each pup costs about 800 to produce (for example) why is then not ok to charge at least 800 for the pup?

In all other products we buy we pay for the health and saftey testing in the purchase price. We don't expect manufacturers to eat those costs...

Enough things go wrong with litters (trust me... ) that you will end up loosing money. Why expect breeders start out planning on loosing money?
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  #23  
Old 01-07-2010, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
hmm what is the typical cost for a collie puppy? Why is it assumed its not ok for the breeder to try to break even on a litter? (assuming they aren't charging an arm and a leg)

I don't get the "its not ok to pass the cost along" So what things ARE ok to pass the cost along? Showing, stud fee, food, microchipping, shots? I mean shots are a basic need for pups.. do we not expect that cost to be added to the price of the pup? To me it all boils down to if each pup costs about 800 to produce (for example) why is then not ok to charge at least 800 for the pup?

In all other products we buy we pay for the health and saftey testing in the purchase price. We don't expect manufacturers to eat those costs...

Enough things go wrong with litters (trust me... ) that you will end up loosing money. Why expect breeders start out planning on loosing money?


That wasn't exactly what I mean. I've seen so many back-yard breeders in Collies who breed badly bred dogs.. dogs that obviously FAR from the breed standard, dogs that should not be bred, but they are normal eyed, and other than eyes.. they or the parents have no other health tests.. and they justify breeding these badly bred dogs that barely look like Collies, because they are normal eyed, and jack up the price more than $1000. I've see some up to $1500-$1600... and these are badly bred pet quality dogs that are normal eyed!

Most show breeders don't charge that much for a well bred show prospect puppy!!

Oh.. and as far as the typical cost of a Collie puppy. Well bred puppy from a reputable breeder is USUALLY in the range of $700-$1000. It really depends on the terms of the contract.
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  #24  
Old 01-07-2010, 10:28 AM
sammgirl sammgirl is offline
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The Viewer Viewpoint - The Stages of Degenerative Myelopathy

Degenerative Myelopathy - disease basics

It's Degenerative Myelopathy:

[
Quote:
Degenerative myelopathy is a progressive disease of the spinal cord in older dogs. The disease has an insidious onset typically between 8 and 14 years of age. It begins with a loss of coordination (ataxia) in the hind limbs. The affected dog will wobble when walking, knuckle over or drag the feet. This can first occur in one hind limb and then affect the other. As the disease progresses, the limbs become weak and the dog begins to buckle and has difficulty standing. The weakness gets progressively worse until the dog is unable to walk. The clinical course can range from 6 months to 1 year before dogs become paraplegic. If signs progress for a longer period of time, loss of urinary and fecal continence may occur and eventually weakness will develop in the front limbs. Another key feature of DM is that it is not a painful disease.
We also have Addisons, PHPT, Hip Dysplasia, and other auto immune disorders are WAY to common IMHO.

The DM test is new, but my breeder is VERY health consious and so she was right on that as soon as the test for it came out. Now, all of her stock has been tested.

My puppy will hopefully be DM clear, but could also be a carrier. We will test her as soon as she is in the states.

Here is an affected corgi:

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  #25  
Old 01-07-2010, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sammgirl View Post
The Viewer Viewpoint - The Stages of Degenerative Myelopathy

Degenerative Myelopathy - disease basics

It's Degenerative Myelopathy:

[

We also have Addisons, PHPT, Hip Dysplasia, and other auto immune disorders are WAY to common IMHO.

The DM test is new, but my breeder is VERY health consious and so she was right on that as soon as the test for it came out. Now, all of her stock has been tested.

My puppy will hopefully be DM clear, but could also be a carrier. We will test her as soon as she is in the states.

Here is an affected corgi:


Thanks for the info. After I posted my question, I went and looked it up. I know very little about Cogris, but after what I read online and what you posted, I do remember back when I lived in Ohio, and worked at a vet clinic up there, we had a frequent boarder that was pembroke, who ended up with this... and later had to be put down. Or at least I'm assuming this was what he had. It's been several years so I don't totally remember.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
In all other products we buy we pay for the health and saftey testing in the purchase price. We don't expect manufacturers to eat those costs...

Enough things go wrong with litters (trust me...) that you will end up loosing money. Why expect breeders start out planning on loosing money?
Also wanted to add.. regardless of whether a person sells their puppies for $200 or $800 or more, doing eye checks should not be an option. They need to be done. It's not something that only show or breeding prospect puppies should be checked for, every single puppy in the litter should be checked for CEA. It also NEEDS to be done by 8 wks of age, to be 100% accurate, sometimes earlier. As I said before it costs me about $200 to have a litter of 5 puppies checked, that's $40 per puppy. It's not horribly expensive.
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  #26  
Old 01-07-2010, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
But wouldn't you want to know if your dog had health issues? I mean I know you might not just do it on your own.. but isn't that why you would go to a good breeder? Cause you care about healthy dogs?

Why is the onus all on the breeder? I would think that people should embrace the idea (if not the practice) of supporting health testing. I do ask my puppy buyers to do a CERF test once after the dog is 4-5. Its $50. I suppose I could tack on an extra 50 to the puppy price...

Unless the breeder is wealthy they would likely just add the cost to the initial price. Personally I would rather have the cost spread out.
If someone is buying from a breeder that health tests as opposed to one that doesn't then they are supporting health testing. I would concede to going halfsies with the breeder on health testing, but since the testing is just as much for the breeder's benefit (if not more) than the puppy owner's I don't think that the puppy buyer should be required to pay all of it *unless* they just do it of their own choice.
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  #27  
Old 01-07-2010, 02:32 PM
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Then the breeder should just add it to the initial cost of the pup.. problem solved. I mean its a cost incurred whilst trying to breed properly. Just like good food, vet care, etc. All those costs get factored in.. so why not health tests? Microchipping costs get factored in, and they are benefit to both breeder and buyer.
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  #28  
Old 01-07-2010, 08:56 PM
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We CERF and BAER test all of our pups before they leave. Hips are done on adults and although it'd be nice if everyone did it, it's not a requirement for puppy buyers. Anything we keep, though, is OFAed and many of our puppy buyers do OFA because they do a lot work/performance.
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  #29  
Old 01-07-2010, 11:26 PM
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My two pets are health tested. Yes, for my own knowledge, but also to provide statistical data. Bailey was tested more as I learned more. She had her hips done originally because her brother is dysplastic. I HAD to know then, if I wanted to continue dog sports with her.

Bailey-Hips, Elbows, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, CERF (we argue about the thyroid--she IS hypothyroid dangnabbit)

Buzz-Hips, Elbows, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, CERF (he had a thyroid panel run at the vet and all was clear, that is one where the cost is double to send it to an OFA approved lab, so I said no to that "official" test)

I didn't do CERFs until I learned a little more about them. We didn't have them done in 2009 (their last was end of Nov. 2008) but they are schedule for the end of Feb, this year. I wasn't stressed or concerned about getting them done "yearly" but it is great data to have with competition dogs in addition to breeding dogs.

Breeder incentives appeal to me a lot. If I ever breed, it is most definitely what I will do. Put away a portion of the purchase price to help pay for it. I would probably ask for hips/elbows and eyes at least once past the puppy CERF regardless of breed.
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  #30  
Old 01-08-2010, 09:57 AM
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Just kind of a question for all on the thread--Do you think that requiring a puppy buyer to do health testing on their pet (either partially or completely paid for by the buyer) would discourage people from buying from reputable breeders?

With labs, if you go with a good breeder you are already paying hundreds more for a pup than you will with pretty much any BYB. I personally would never go to a BYB over a reputable breeder just over a few hundred dollars worth of testing (or at all), but then I am an "Extremist" and there are many "Mainstream" (heehee--sorry couldn't resist) pet buyers that might not feel that way.

I wonder if making it that much more expensive/a hassle for puppy buyers is going to cause more to go to BYBs. I realize that with certain more rare breeds this is not as much of a concern, but with the more popular ones I could foresee it being an issue if every reputable breeder started requiring hundreds of dollars in testing from their puppy buyers.....

Just a thought....
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~Christina--Mom to:
Sally--8 yr old pit bull mix
Jack--6 yr old Labrador
Sadie & Runt--12 yr old calico DSHs
Pickles & Kiwi--3 yr old white winged parakeets
Yoda--1 yr old Quaker parrot
Solo--12 yr old Senegal parrot
Sheena--Quarter Horse--3/24/86-6/23/11--Rest Easy Sweet Girl~




Labs do it in the lake.


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