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Old 11-25-2009, 06:30 PM
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eddieq eddieq is offline
Silence! I ban you!
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Location: PA
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Saying that millions of people follow CM so he must be doing it right is like saying this:

It's just not a strong argument. Jeez, I feel like my mom. "If all of your friends jumped off a bridge, would you do it to?"
When things don't go your way, stop and think, "Problem, or inconvenience?" - with apologies to Robert Fulghum
Old 11-25-2009, 07:05 PM
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lizzybeth727 lizzybeth727 is offline
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Personally, I don't really care about the studies and proven physical and psychological affects of choke chains. What I care about is if they work. I used one to train my first dog when I was young.... My mom and I read a book about how to leash train a puppy and that's what they suggested. We did it exactly the way the book said to use it - made sure it was put on correctly, used quick tug-and-release corrections, the works. In the seven years we had that dog, she NEVER learned to walk on leash without pulling, even with daily walks and exercise before the walk.

In addition to my own personal experience, I've also talked to a lot of people who have used choke chains on their dogs, and no one I've ever talked to has successfully trained the dog with the choke chain. Most people use the wrong size collar, and/or attach it incorrectly so that it doesn't loosen after the correction; but a lot of people do use it correctly and it still doesn't work. You can even watch police K9 handlers walk a dog, and they are constantly correcting the dog with the choke chain, meaning that the dog hasn't figured it out yet.

Sadly, people usually continue using choke chains because they believe it's their DOG's fault he's not learning how to walk on a loose leash. That's what I thought about my dog. It was about a year after she died when I learned more about positive reinforcement training, and how to train a dog without using training collars, and I learned that it was my fault all along for using the wrong tool.
Old 11-25-2009, 07:15 PM
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noodlerubyallie noodlerubyallie is offline
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Originally Posted by Crush View Post
This is because you guys are extremists.

Why do mainstream dog owners call Ceasar Milan for hlep? Ah yes. Because he really is an expert and doesn't consider them humans with fur on them (as most people here consider dogs).
I would never degrade my dogs by considering them humans with fur on them.

Caesar is for lazy people and those unable to do their own research. They want a quick fix, not something that takes a lot of time and patience.

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Old 11-25-2009, 07:20 PM
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Lizmo Lizmo is offline
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Originally Posted by Crush View Post
Ah yes. Because he really is an expert and doesn't consider them humans with fur on them (as most people here consider dogs).
Ah, please, please enlighten us with a direct QUOTE from a member here that says they do this.

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Old 11-25-2009, 07:33 PM
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Southpaw Southpaw is offline
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Ahhh I love this thread. I'm about as casual a dog owner as they come and I don't use choke chains, nor do I listen to a word from Cesar. Hooray for being an extremist!

Juno CGC 2009 :: Sawyer 2015 :: Cajun CGC 2013 :: Lucy 2006
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:46 PM
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Dekka Dekka is offline
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Hmm my dog is a dog. To call them human is to do them great disservice. You will find many on here don't think or treat their dogs like 'humans in fur'.

I am one for calling people on anthropomorphizing and reading more into their dog's behaviours than is realistic.

I really think you need to read some posts Crush.. I mean I have been on forums where people treat dogs like they have higher understanding and are moral. (strangely enough those are the forums with the greatest number of CM fans)
Old 11-25-2009, 07:59 PM
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There is absolutely no such thing as a "dog extremist", "dog enthusiast", or "mainstream" dog owner. If anything they are loosely based generalizations, fabricated and inaccurate. For one, it doesn't make you sound anymore intelligent or as if you sound like you're well-informed.

And no, your "dog extremists" aren't anthropomorphizing(read: v. tr.
To ascribe human characteristics to.) their companions. They are treating them with the love and respect they deserve as living, breathing, feeling, thinking creatures. If you take the well being of a living animal in your home, you're essentially assuming the position of a god-like figure. You control most of the elements in that animal's life. Why wouldn't you want to be a just "god"? The way you treat animals is by all means a reflection of yourself as a human being. What do you think using forceful, frightening techniques like yelling and choke collars says about your caliber as a human being? How do you think your dog feels?

Have you ever considered that your puppy is listening to you "so well" because it's frightened? It's afraid of you? How does that make you feel?

The way you sling the terms "enthusiast", "mainstream", and "extremist" makes you sound as though you're trying to justify the poor treatment of the animal you're housing. You're drawing lines that don't exist. There are no such things. There are just people who sincerely care about and love their animals, and people who just don't really give.

'Hope "Victor" doesn't wind up in a shelter.
Old 11-25-2009, 08:07 PM
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Juicy Juicy is offline
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So wait let me guess Miley Cyrus went and got a maltipoo so you did too?!!

And I guess you miss the whole 'do not try this at home' in the intro of the dog whisperer?!

Old 11-25-2009, 08:11 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
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I'm going to preface this by saying I have a tendency to be blunt. You have been warned.

Crush, I find you annoying as hell.

Now, on to choke collars, prong collars, etc. To say that they ALWAYS cause physical and psychological damage and that only uneducated trainers use them is a gross generalization. Choke collars, prong collars, martingales, and even headcollars have their place. I personally would NEVER train my dog in a 100% positive manner, without ever using the word "no." That's a silly idea. If I'm trying to teach you math, and you guess that 2+2 = 5, and I tell you no, then you know it's wrong, you try again. I may even tell you it's 4, so that you have a better chance next time. If you guess 2+2 = 5 and I say nothing, what happens? Do you assume it's right? Do you guess again, maybe getting it right or maybe getting it wrong for who knows how long? Some dogs want/need the guidance that comes from corrections.

If a prong collar is used by someone who knows how to use one, it's actually less damaging than a flat collar or a choke chain. If a choke chain is used right, it can be less damaging than a flat collar, too, depending on what you're doing. I have seen MANY dogs with collapsing tracheas that have only ever been on flat collars. Flat collars cause damage too. However, they too have their place. Some dogs do WONDERFULLY with just a flat collar. Some don't. Sometimes, having a large untrained dog that weighs more than its owner on a flat collar is just plain dangerous. Of course the real solution there is to train the dog, but I digress.

Anyway, saying that a choke chain or prong collar should never be used on any dog is just as naiive as saying that a dog cannot have been trained to walk on a leash if it's not on a choke chain.
Old 11-25-2009, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Lizmo View Post
Ah, please, please enlighten us with a direct QUOTE from a member here that says they do this.
"I would never degrade my dogs by considering them humans with fur on them."

So she took it a step further..
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