training an automatic response

[dogsarebetter]

How exactly would you go about training an automatic response?
I would love to have Ruckus automatically lay down when he wants to be reactive with loud cars, and motorcycles.
Like the loud car, or the motorcycle becomes a cue for him to lay down.

Is there a way to teach a dog to lay down when ever they want to be reactive? Then instead of the cars, and motorcycles being the cue to lay down, his stress would be the cue.

Does this make any sense! I am having word trouble today

[release the hounds]

are you wanting this for when you're around or when he's left alone?

i'm assuming it's for when you're out on walks and things like that, but I gotta say I probably wouldn't do what you're suggesting.

It's probably a reaction based in fear. It's odd, but no joke, I was reading about this stuff last night. I haven't picked up a dog behavior book in 9 months probably, but for some reason I did last night ad read about 3 whole pages before I put it back down and it was talking about this sort of things.

Maybe it was a coincidence maybe not, but usually movement at first, active games, tug, walking, coming to you etc with rewards at first are good for overcoming the stimulus, and then as he gets better you can cue him to do certain things that end well for him.

if you're using his "stress" to cue him to lay down, then you'll also have to be able to remove that stress in a controlled manner when he lays down to teach him that laying down is removing what is making him feel uncomfortable. That isn't really practical or fun training imo.

in addition, trying to teach a passive exercise like the down, can only lean towards heightening his fear in the presence of a stimulus that causes this stress and reactivity. movement and interaction (fun and meaningful interaction) on your part and his is what will get him over this. Making him go passive and hold it in the face of this reactive stimuli will only allow him to focus more intensely on it and increase his reactions in time.

it will lesson the stress he feels and will also allow you to put certain things on cue and you can control that and what he's rewarded with much better than you can control the stimulus.

make sense?

[corgipower]

Originally Posted by dogsarebetter

How exactly would you go about training an automatic response?
I would love to have Ruckus automatically lay down when he wants to be reactive with loud cars, and motorcycles.

I have taught an automatic down to a dog who was worried about things, but she was not reactive. She would get worried, her face would change and she'd run away with her tail tucked. As soon as she'd see something she was going to be worried about, I'd immediately ask for a down and reward her for doing so. She then would lie there and realize that the cause of her worry was not actually anything to be worried about. The down became automatic and she would see something unfamiliar and drop without a command and lie there quite pleased with herself and relaxed. I really got lucky with her and the way it worked and it's not something I would suggest trying with most dogs.

A sit would be better in so far as being a less vulnerable position for the dog and teach him to reorient to you. Use gradual desensitization and counterconditioning to build positive associations.

[Doberluv]

Originally Posted by release the hounds

are you wanting this for when you're around or when he's left alone?

i'm assuming it's for when you're out on walks and things like that, but I gotta say I probably wouldn't do what you're suggesting.

It's probably a reaction based in fear. It's odd, but no joke, I was reading about this stuff last night. I haven't picked up a dog behavior book in 9 months probably, but for some reason I did last night ad read about 3 whole pages before I put it back down and it was talking about this sort of things.

Maybe it was a coincidence maybe not, but usually movement at first, active games, tug, walking, coming to you etc with rewards at first are good for overcoming the stimulus, and then as he gets better you can cue him to do certain things that end well for him.

if you're using his "stress" to cue him to lay down, then you'll also have to be able to remove that stress in a controlled manner when he lays down to teach him that laying down is removing what is making him feel uncomfortable. That isn't really practical or fun training imo.

in addition, trying to teach a passive exercise like the down, can only lean towards heightening his fear in the presence of a stimulus that causes this stress and reactivity. movement and interaction (fun and meaningful interaction) on your part and his is what will get him over this. Making him go passive and hold it in the face of this reactive stimuli will only allow him to focus more intensely on it and increase his reactions in time.

it will lesson the stress he feels and will also allow you to put certain things on cue and you can control that and what he's rewarded with much better than you can control the stimulus.

make sense?

I agree with this post. Additionally, teaching a dog to lie down (a vulnerable and scary position anyhow) or any one particular behavior when he's about to be stressed, turns the down into a stress cue. Lying down can become a conditioned stressor if it's always paired with a scary time. In other words, the down tells him he's about to experience stress or fear and you don't want that anticipation to develop in a chronic way.

I would vary the distractions you want to use to help dissipate his stress. You could have him "watch" you or give him something to do that involves movement, as suggested.

In addition and very important would be to desensatize him to the fearful stimuli....using distance and high value treats or toys to pair the stimuli with happy things. Keep him at a distance at first, which makes it tolerable for him. If you keep him below his stress level by doing this, then you can attach a sit or some particular position because it will come to signify that a tolerable thing is about to happen. And then, as he becomes more calm in the presence of cars and things, as your desensatizing program starts working on him, that behavior will become a signal that he's going to get a treat or some other nice thing. But at first, I'd vary those things so they don't become stress signals in themselves.

Hope that mumbo jumbo makes sense.

[dogsarebetter]

thank you all!

[Shadow_Spitz]

DoberLuv nailed it! What you want to do is definitely work on your CCDS (counterconditioning + desensitization). The key is to make sure that your dog isn't too stressed to learn (stress inhibits to some extent his learning capabilities), so you always have to be far away that he barely reacts to the fear causing stimulus but close enough that he knows its there. This is technically called being under the fear threshold.

Once you find out at what distance away from the car noises he isn't so reactive against then you can start counterconditioning, as suggested above the best counterconditioning command for your case would be the "Watch Me" command. After all image that you are walking down a sidewalk, it would be completely unpractical having your dog lay when a dog zooms by, instead having him look at you and you reassuring or distracting him will not only be more practical but easier for your dog. And its perfectly fine to comfort your dog. Offer a few reassuring words and maybe a nice pat.

Hope that summary helps but in case you need a little more 'step by step' kind of guide, heres something that might help you: Fearful Dogs - Fearful dog, Dogs afraid of people, dogs, thunder, fireworks - phobias

Best of wishes!

[dogsarebetter]

guys, i really dont think his behavior is fear based though.

he runs to the fence, tail up high, ears erect.

how do you know if its fear based or not? To me he just looks excited because he is about to get to chase a car, etc through the fence.

[Shadow_Spitz]

Originally Posted by dogsarebetter

guys, i really dont think his behavior is fear based though.

he runs to the fence, tail up high, ears erect.

how do you know if its fear based or not? To me he just looks excited because he is about to get to chase a car, etc through the fence.

Ohh its more of a chase drive thing then? Well to some extent the advice above still applies, you need to stay below the threhold that makes him reactive and subsitute for the response you want.

[dogsarebetter]

thanks everyone.

Yeah, i really think its that he is sooo worked up because of chase/herding drive.
i wish i could get it on video and post it for everyone to see!

Ruckus is a fearful dog, and he does have fear issues, but this looks different.

[corgipower]

Originally Posted by dogsarebetter

guys, i really dont think his behavior is fear based though.

Not sure how much that really matters, except in that if it's not fear based, you don't need the same amount of desensitizing/positive association building. But the methods done to do the desensitizing and build positive associations will simultaneously create more focus on you ~ the giver of all things good.