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  #21  
Old 11-18-2009, 06:49 PM
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corgipower corgipower is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeph View Post
I actually don't think you'll be able to find one that isn't a cross line to be honest. White is basically extinct in those lines, or if they show up...nobody mentions it (the puppies are usually euth'd over in Europe). If you find one, do tell!
Actually, I have seen some working quality white GSD's. They're not oopses from colored parents and they're not crosses. They come from people who are breeding white GSD's who have working qualities to begin with.
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  #22  
Old 11-18-2009, 07:01 PM
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Working quality and working lines are not the same thing corgipower.

You're not going to find a white puppy with, say, Eagle Eichenluft behind it unless the dogs were cross lines.

Also Foxy, you are incorrect again in your description of inbreeding and linebreeding. Inbreeding/linebreeding does not cause defects...it allows defects (and attributes) to be expressed.

You cannot breed something that is not already there, whether you see it or not.

Also...it's conformation and Shepherd...sorry it was bothering me.

Quote:
A little off topic, but curious ... has anyone ever seen an 'extreme' white GSD (i.e. like some of the overdone conformation dogs)?
It depends on how you define "overdone":
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard...ype/white2.JPG

I find this to be a beautiful dog (white or otherwise) but many would consider him overdone
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  #23  
Old 11-18-2009, 07:08 PM
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again xeph, your not reading my posts. i said in and line breeding FIXES traits and Overdone line breeding will "cause" defects, just because those defects are hidden "traits" doesnt make them any less of a defect, and the fact that these traits are expressed more and FIXED with each in/line breeding yes it does "cause" them in the sense that it causes them to be stroger expressed and fixed with each breeding.

if you in or line breed for good traits it can work out well producing a certain look and "locking it" in place..
howeer in or line breed without a clue as to what your doing you get all kinds of issues which become more apparent due to expressing and locking of said undesirable traits.

but again, obviously either im not getting what im trying to say across in type...or your simply not getting what im trying to say...
which ill chock up to the fact im currently on a nice high dose of codine for pain.
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  #24  
Old 11-18-2009, 07:08 PM
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I think the people who do nothing but conformation, and breed for conformation, are the ones who are ruining the breed. The conformation standards have changed so much and breeders who want a show champion have bred to that standard so much that the GSD is hardly what it used to be. Show me breeders who breed for nothing but looks, I'll show you a dog that can't do what it was meant to do. Herding, protection, anything that requires strong nerves, even temperament, and physical endurance. I'm sure there are examples out there but there's a reason why police and military K9 people don't use show dogs.

While the whites may not have the conformation "traits" that the average show champion has, they have had many of their desirable attributes watered down by the breeding for color over everything else.
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  #25  
Old 11-18-2009, 07:12 PM
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The White breeders call them Berger Blanc Suisse. I don't agree with it because they're still GSDs. Nothing else has been introduced into the line.

As to the conformation standards, they really have not changed...it is standard interpretation that is the issue. The differences in the SV and AKC standards are actually minimal, but politics + different interpretation = problems.

And I've seen a few show lines that are doing ok as K9's, though I don't have problem admitting they aren't the norm.
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  #26  
Old 11-18-2009, 07:23 PM
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absolutly agree Dan...
its such a shame what confirmation does to many breeds...
human interpretation always causes issues, im almost every aspect of life.
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  #27  
Old 11-19-2009, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeph View Post
It depends on how you define "overdone":
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard...ype/white2.JPG

I find this to be a beautiful dog (white or otherwise) but many would consider him overdone
That is the first white I've seen that looked like the other dogs in the ring ... I was using 'overdone' because there have been many discussions on here about show GSD conformation and figured people would relate to the word. I prefer 'extreme', such as too much angulation (for my tastes), although I know the purpose is for the flying trot ...
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  #28  
Old 11-19-2009, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanL View Post
The white breeders want them to be a separate breed because they can't show since the color is considered a fault. They are calling them something like a Swiss Shepherd, I can't remember the exact name.
Some breeders successed in getting it reconized it by the FCI, and is allowed to show.

As it says in wikipedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
FCI as White Swiss Shepherd Dogs (Berger Blanc Suisse)
The standar appears as BERGER BLANC SUISSE http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/347a2002_en.doc
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  #29  
Old 11-19-2009, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeph View Post
The White breeders call them Berger Blanc Suisse. I don't agree with it because they're still GSDs. Nothing else has been introduced into the line.

As to the conformation standards, they really have not changed...it is standard interpretation that is the issue. The differences in the SV and AKC standards are actually minimal, but politics + different interpretation = problems.

And I've seen a few show lines that are doing ok as K9's, though I don't have problem admitting they aren't the norm.
Lots of new breeds start from taking a few traits from an existing population. Often they call them something else due to politics. (PRTs vs JRTs anyone? PRTs all came from JRTs, but their breed standard is slightly different)
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  #30  
Old 11-20-2009, 01:11 AM
Xeph Xeph is offline
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I know and I hate it >.<

Unlike the PRT and JRT that look fundamentally different at this point (to me anyway) the White Shepherds still look (and STACK!) like regular GSDs, and are built the same.
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