Need help (again) 2/living with 2 aggressive dogs...

[Dreeza]

Alrighty, so i'm sure some of you remember my roomie's dog, Camden who had some REALLY bad food/rawhide aggression. And my roomie went w/BarkBusters training (ew, I know). The lady wasn't horrible...really didn't bring out anything too horrible...just the spray bottle & the 'bah!'. Anyways, as much as I hate BB, it worked...Camden & Leo (her bf's dog) are now totally content eating right next to each other.


Anyways, all has been good with Camden...zero aggressiveness. Until yesterday...aka...Oakley is back. He got all protective over his food bowl again. Oakley has never tried taking his food, but he is picks on him...trying to hump him/barking at him/snapping at him if he is getting attention, etc. Its not ALL the time...like last night they were both sitting just fine in the living room even w/Camden on the couch, Oakley on the floor.

So we need to nip this problem in the but NOW. My roomie's dad WILL put Camden to sleep if he bites my roomie again...and obviously I feel horrible cause it is CLEARLY Oakley who is bringing Camden's aggression back. We are obviously separating them at feedings...but since the aggression previously escalated very fast, we want to stop it before it gets back to that point.

Help!?

[Romy]

honestly, since the stakes are so high for Camden I would do an extreme NILIF for both of them for a couple of weeks. I would go as far as having Camden's leash fastened to your roomate's belt 24/7, and the same with Oakley to you. When you are not able to be there with them fastened to you, they should be in a crate.

I would NOT let them have any negative interaction. If one starts mouthing off at the other, leave the room with the offender. After the offending dog stops, try a slow reintroduction. If they ignore each other in the same room, I'd reward them both heavily. If they have a friendly and polite greeting, another heavy reward. If they mouth off again, leave.

I wouldn't call them both aggressive. It sounds like Oakley is an obnoxious player, and Camden has a low tolerance for being jumped and humped on (understandable). Camden is defensive of his resources (food).

I would also only feed Camden in his crate. Don't leave his empty bowl out, don't let him have anything that he feels the need to protect. Don't free fed him. He needs a schedule. If he's insecure, having a schedule will help him.

Unfortunately bark busters may have made the underlying problem worse by "attacking" Camden when he's feeling anxious that someone is going to take his stuff. Have your roomate play trading games with him, and feed him out of her hands, etc. so he knows good things come when he lets your roomate near his food. You can work on that with Oakley too, desensitizing him to having Oakley around his stuff, but I wouldn't try that until your roommate builds that trust back up with him. He's not going to trust Oakley, or trust you guys to control Oakley, if he doesn't trust you two to begin with.

[Dreeza]

So basically the dogs need to know that my roomie & I are the ones who should be trusted to protect themselves & their belongings?...that there is no reason they need to get all protective cause we are here to do that for them? Makes sense...thanks so much!

And yes, I actually meant to clarify the aggressive thing in my post...neither dog is mean-aggressive...both are just incredibly anxious (Oakley even worse...). So I could definitely see how both are anxious in the presence of each other...

Thanks!

[Romy]

Originally Posted by Dreeza

So basically the dogs need to know that my roomie & I are the ones who should be trusted to protect themselves & their belongings?...that there is no reason they need to get all protective cause we are here to do that for them? Makes sense...thanks so much!

That is exactly right! One thing that all these guys saying "you need to be the alpha, blah blah, now alpha roll your dog and show him who's boss" completely miss is "true alpha" behavior.

A strong leader protects their pack/family.

A strong leader controls the resources in a fair way, meaning nobody starves or anything.

Strong leaders do not attack their comrades. They don't steal resources because in the end, all resources are borrowed from them and belong to them. They keep the peace.

In order for your dogs to view you as their protector/resource provider, that's basically what you need to do for them. Reinforce that they are working for their food and affection not that they can just demand it. Even if it's only a "sit" or some other silly little thing before you feed them or pet them. Don't let them bother each other. If Oakley is being too rambunctious, put him in a little time out with something to chew on, or take him for a walk or something. Really reinforce them chilling out and being good with each other. Camden needs to trust that you guys are going to protect him and his stuff so that he doesn't feel the need to do it himself.

[mrose_s]

Romy's posts are great. NILIF sounds like it could really help. I just wanted to ad that I used to completley miss the point of NILIF. Its not really about ceontrolling your dog, its about teaching your dog self control. I did it with Buster for a while without fully undestanding it and then I noticed other changes in him. He hesitates and actually thinks before blindly lunging at another dog. That was a total blow to me when I first relised what he'd done, we hadn't done much work on actually desensitizing him but he had enough self control to use his head before just reacting. I love NILIF. lol

[Dreeza]

Thanks again...we've really been limiting the negative interaction between them. The leash thing has been kinda tough though, cause they both get so freaking excited when they see them come out that its just been rather annoying...its been going better though anyways.

One thing that I decided was that Oakley is no longer allowed in Camden's room since Oakley doesn;t allow Camden in his room (well, my room, haha). Soo hopefully that will make Camden realize that he has a safe place to go if Oakley is picking on him. its been a slow process, but improvement has def been seen!!

[PJC]

what is NILIF?

[lizzybeth727]

Originally Posted by PJC

what is NILIF?

Nothing In Life Is Free.

[Phoenixangelwyngs]

Originally Posted by PJC

what is NILIF?

Nothing in life is free.

Basically, it's a training method that is amazingly effective. It teaches the dog that since you are in charge, and you control the resources, AND that you won't give them ANYTHING unless they do as you ask... they quickly learn that they get the things they want by doing the things you want.

For example:

It's dinner time at the zoo.... each dog gets his food only if in his kennel and quiet. I find barking annoying so no barkers get food until after they've been quiet. I also have each dog complete a sit or down or other simple command before the bowl if given to him. He does what I ask, he gets food. If he doesn't, I go back to doing something else for five to fifteen minutes and ask him to sit again. Only when he sits upon request can he have his bowl.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong in my description or example. Thanks!

[adojrts]

Agreed the NILIF is a great tool. I also agree that the BB's did nothing but suppress the unwanted behaviour for the time being and didn't modify the behaviour. Especially when the other dog came back into the picture.

The one thing that I would suggest is also making the dogs work when you see 'those looks' passing between them. Get control of the situation before it esculates by working the dogs in tandem. Of course that means that they both have to have some obedience skills for this to work. You can have them doing obedience combined with some cool tricks and make it fun. It doesn't take them long to looking forward to these sessions and to not only tolerate each other but know that good things happen when they worked side by side.
Another thing, if the one dog is pushing the other dogs limits and doesn't have the sense to back off (some dogs don't, just like some people they just keep poking lol) then you need to train that dog to stop and stop immediately when you tell him to. Placement training in this case works very well.

Good luck.