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  #71  
Old 10-23-2009, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Lolas Dad View Post
Well it's hard to know that seeing as how you left out that important detail no matter how little it was.

I did see one episode of DW where there was a dog that did not want to walk past a garbage can. He would go nuts so what Cesar did was get some garbage cans and put them in two rows close together and got the dog walking right past them. Sometimes I think it's the owner in different situations that make the problem worse as in this case the woman seen the garbage cans and was afraid to have her dog walk past them because she knew the dog was going to freak out. The dog was picking up on her fear.
using a teat is pretty much inferred. in order for the dog to be scared to do something, the dog has to be asked to it. When trying to shape or get a certain behavior luring is pretty much a given. and my post was talking about the dog was not forced to be pulled through the tunnel... that's about it.

I'm not trying to be rude when I ask this, but is english your first language? You're post really are very confusing to read. You jump from topic to topic or seem to almost pull things that border the conversation but aren't really what is being talked about...
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  #72  
Old 10-23-2009, 11:21 AM
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Sometimes I think it's the owner in different situations that make the problem worse as in this case the woman seen the garbage cans and was afraid to have her dog walk past them because she knew the dog was going to freak out. The dog was picking up on her fear.
Absolutely, that is often the case. And can contribute and add to the fear the dog has. However, over whelming the dog that is going nutso, with rows of several garbage cans so that the dog is forced right past them, flooding him with the object of his fear causes a great risk of learned helplessness...not a good thing. Flooding and force is never the answer when you're talking about a dog who is terrified of something. Now, I've seen my little dog, Jose` occassionally be leery of something up ahead on a walk or hike. Once it was a burned out stump...all black, where everything else in the surroundings didn't look like that. He hesitated to go forward and barked at it. He did not show a high level of anxiety, however. I picked him up in my arms and took him up to it and I touched it. Then he sniffed it and said, "Oh....it's just a hunk of wood." Had he been crouching, backing, trying to escape, I would not have done that. In other words, he had a mild trepidation about the stump, not undue fear.

When something only needs to be gentled along, why use disproportionate force? A little desensatizing would have gotten that garbage can fearing dog right over his fears. It would have taken me about 15 or 20 minutes to convince the dog that the garbage cans (first just one, not a double row of several) are not going to kill him, and in fact, are associated with a very good thing.
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  #73  
Old 10-23-2009, 05:11 PM
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and yes, I have met both cesar AND daddy. its very hard not to like them..
cesar is just sooo nice and daddy is just the sweetest pit ive ever met lol he asked me about my school, and my dogs and was just an overall really nice, goodlooking and friendly guy!

cesar is incredibly friendly and I honestly think he means well. do I agree with everything he does? no. but i definetly dont think hes an evil dog abuser. I think most of the issues comes from amateur people trying to mimick him..and his show does say "do not try this.. consult a proffesional"

Ya, i think the water and stuff is kind of silly. but if i was in his position.. hell, if it would sell, i would market my own dog water 2! lol

I do think some of the hate comes from people who honestly don't agree with his methods but... I think some of it is just well.. haters lol he is very successful. hes the typical rag to riches story, hes was a poor dog groomer who trained dogs and is now a highly paid, good looking, famous dog trainer with his own very popular TV show as well as his own line of everything lol
LMAO! How many times must you emphasize how good looking Cesar is? Fran is in loooove...

I think it's already well known how I feel about CM. I think he portrays himself in a very, very, very flattering light and he's a marketing genius. He should've just gotten into business and left poor helpless dogs out of it. He is single-handedly taking dog training back 30 years, and being worshipped/idolized for it. Amazing!!!!

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Originally Posted by xpaeanx View Post
using a teat is pretty much inferred.
Teehee!
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  #74  
Old 10-23-2009, 06:15 PM
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I agree Gonzo. He could probably easily get into acting with very little training.... and become a movie star. Why doesn't he try that instead and leave these poor dogs alone?
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  #75  
Old 10-23-2009, 06:59 PM
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do you know how I got Ruckus out of chasing cars while on a leash?

I just stopped anticipating it and getting nervous about it. It wasnt the cars he was reacting too most of the time, it was my reaction to the cars that was upsetting him.

to this day, if I tighten a leash around a car... he will lunge at it!
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  #76  
Old 10-23-2009, 11:46 PM
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That was the same thing I was talking about earlier with the lady and the garbage cans. It was her reaction causing the problem.
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  #77  
Old 10-24-2009, 08:17 AM
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Regardless of the cause or reason for the fear, whether it's coming from a nervous owner or whether it's just the dog's own fear of something, forcing and flooding the dog with the stimulus is NOT the right way to go about getting him over his fear. (unless it's a mild fearful response) That can cause more damage. Desensatizing/counter conditioning is the method which will cause no risk of learned helplessness. What precedes shutting down and dissociating from the stimulus (what Cesar wrongly perceives, is proof the dog is cured) causes a high level of stress and anxiety. It causes a rise in adrenelin and other stress hormones, a rise in blood pressure, heart rate and respiration. Producing anxiety and putting a dog in a chronic state like that is very unhealthy, not only physically, but psycholocially. They do not go through the normal and natural way of accustoming themselves to something they're initially terrified of. In this state, it is difficult, if not impossible for a dog to learn about the fear stimulus. He is in fight or flight, in other words. The cortex (the thinking part of the brain) is not functioning to a sufficient degree when an animal is in fight or flight. To learn to accept the stimuli, he must be in a more relaxed state...hence, desensatizing methods are preferred by experienced trainers and behaviorists.
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  #78  
Old 10-24-2009, 08:51 AM
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Did you know that Cesar works with these dogs for hours at a time sometimes days and that what your seeing on TV is only a few minutes of what was actually taped. There is a minimum of 10 hours of tape that is whittled down to 15 minutes of useful footage for the show. So that I am not leaving out any details this was on one of his shows how everything takes hours and what your seeing is a very small part. I'm not defending what he does or doesn't do and I am not saying what he does is right or wrong I am just letting you know that it is Hollywood.

Same goes for Victoria Stlllwell of "It's Me Or The Dog". Recently I had seen her at 2 places. The first was the puppy mill awareness day event and the second was Woofstock in Harrisburg PA. She had a question and answer session and she was talking about one of her episodes where a dog would go nuts every time the couple would get up from the sofa they spent 8 hours just halfway getting up and sitting down again before the dog stopped panicking. What you see on the actual show is a way shortened down version.
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  #79  
Old 10-24-2009, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Lolas Dad View Post
There is a minimum of 10 hours of tape that is whittled down to 15 minutes of useful footage for the show.

<snip>

they spent 8 hours just halfway getting up and sitting down again before the dog stopped panicking. What you see on the actual show is a way shortened down version.
And then JQP expects dog trainers to produce results in 20 minutes or less.
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  #80  
Old 10-24-2009, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolas Dad View Post
Did you know that Cesar works with these dogs for hours at a time sometimes days and that what your seeing on TV is only a few minutes of what was actually taped. There is a minimum of 10 hours of tape that is whittled down to 15 minutes of useful footage for the show. So that I am not leaving out any details this was on one of his shows how everything takes hours and what your seeing is a very small part. I'm not defending what he does or doesn't do and I am not saying what he does is right or wrong I am just letting you know that it is Hollywood.

Same goes for Victoria Stlllwell of "It's Me Or The Dog". Recently I had seen her at 2 places. The first was the puppy mill awareness day event and the second was Woofstock in Harrisburg PA. She had a question and answer session and she was talking about one of her episodes where a dog would go nuts every time the couple would get up from the sofa they spent 8 hours just halfway getting up and sitting down again before the dog stopped panicking. What you see on the actual show is a way shortened down version.
I think we all know that. But at least VS actively says changes don't happen fast. TV is all about the fast resolution. The biggest indicator that CM isn't actually promoting dog training but an 'extreme conflict reality show' is the warning not to try this at home. If the purpose was to help people with dogs they would show things people COULD do at home.

Dog training isn't really that tricky or special, but when you want to sell a product you need to convince the buyer its special, rare, essential, etc.
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