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  #51  
Old 10-22-2009, 09:27 AM
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I have witnessed many such episodes where I would call it abuse. The force, intimidation and coersion he uses is abusive. I've seen him forceably drag dogs across floors they're afraid of, tightening up on the choke collar until it cuts off their air supply. I've seen him lie across a dog that was terrified of having it's nails clipped. He got the dog in a sort of head lock and forced him to get his nails clipped. (He got bitten 3 times on that episode. Does that tell you something? That the dog is in full on defense mode? The dog feels abused or he wouldn't bite like that) I've seen him stomp his feet and lunge forward, pointing his finger toward dogs in order to keep them in their pen. The dogs would cower and cringe as they stepped backward. Their body language was perfectly clear to me....they were afraid. (2 bull dogs he was teaching to stay back until invited out of the kennel) I could go on and on with what I've seen him do that I would say is abusive. To cause a dog fear, to force him into terrifying situations, the physical and psychological mistreatment is apparent to a lot of dog lovers. He puts many dogs into a state of learned helplessness, which to unknowing people, appears to be a "behaved" dog. The trouble is, these dogs are afraid to behave AT ALL! How much more violent must it be for you to see it as abusive to an innocent animal?

Training dogs with effective, gentle methods has made a sweeping upturn all over the world. There are more sophisticated methods, which are based on the science of behavior at everyone's disposal. Why on earth would someone choose to go to CM, who has no credentials whatsoever. I know he's a big "star" but it still amazes me that people don't look around more for a real trainer. There are a few things he does that are all right, but so what. Those things aren't unique to him! Like I said, why would you have to eat through part of a rotten salad to realize that a few parts of it are okay? Why not eat a fresh salad with no rotten parts in it? LOL.

If you don't pity these two dogs, if you can't read the body language written all over them, if you can't see what this CM is doing to them, then I don't know what to say.

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Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan
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  #52  
Old 10-22-2009, 10:15 AM
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how about don't say anything

talk about not saying anything unique
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  #53  
Old 10-22-2009, 10:19 AM
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Is it abuse that when I open Lola's crate in the morning that I have her wait until I call her without being physical?. Is it abuse when I have her wait inside the door as I exit and leave the door open with her on a leash until I say she can come out without being physical? Is it abuse when I enter the house that she sits outside at the door looks up at me waiting for me to tell her to come in without getting physical?

Is it abuse that when I was teaching Lola to "Leave it" with a treat on the floor that when she went to get it without me telling her to that I would block her by putting my hand in front of the treat blocking her from getting it?. Is it abuse that when I put treats on the floor for her that she can't have any until I tell her to and I tell her which one I want her to have? Is it abuse that when I put out her food that she cannot eat and that I sometimes make her sit or lay down first and the only time she can have the food is when I say eat? and again in the above not get physical with her. Is it abuse that I can take her food dish away while she is eating it and not have her growl, bark or get mad?. Is it abuse that I can open her mouth when she is chewing on something and take it out if I do not feel it is appropriate? Was it abuse last week when she picked up a piece of cheese that she found outside and I told her to drop it and she did?

Now what I would like to see is Cesar who usually rehabs dog's that bite, are aggresive etc have a dog on the show that is totally unfriendly, very aggressive and a dog that no body would want to own train the dog and have Victoria Stillwell train the same type of dog on the same show and see whose dog is better behaved by them using their own methods. Which dog comes out on top of the behaviors corrected wins.
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  #54  
Old 10-22-2009, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Lolas Dad View Post
Is it abuse that when I open Lola's crate in the morning that I have her wait until I call her without being physical?. Is it abuse when I have her wait inside the door as I exit and leave the door open with her on a leash until I say she can come out without being physical? Is it abuse when I enter the house that she sits outside at the door looks up at me waiting for me to tell her to come in without getting physical?

Is it abuse that when I was teaching Lola to "Leave it" with a treat on the floor that when she went to get it without me telling her to that I would block her by putting my hand in front of the treat blocking her from getting it?. Is it abuse that when I put treats on the floor for her that she can't have any until I tell her to and I tell her which one I want her to have? Is it abuse that when I put out her food that she cannot eat and that I sometimes make her sit or lay down first and the only time she can have the food is when I say eat? and again in the above not get physical with her. Is it abuse that I can take her food dish away while she is eating it and not have her growl, bark or get mad?. Is it abuse that I can open her mouth when she is chewing on something and take it out if I do not feel it is appropriate? Was it abuse last week when she picked up a piece of cheese that she found outside and I told her to drop it and she did?
Now what I would like to see is Cesar who usually rehabs dog's that bite, are aggresive etc have a dog on the show that is totally unfriendly, very aggressive and a dog that no body would want to own train the dog and have Victoria Stillwell train the same type of dog on the same show and see whose dog is better behaved by them using their own methods. Which dog comes out on top of the behaviors corrected wins.
No. Why would you even ask that? Of course it's not. Is it abuse if I tell my dogs to stop doing something? I tell my dogs "no" sometimes, but re direct them to something else. I tell them to leave it and to wait too. (In fact, "leave it" to them means they're going to get something better...something really good.) It's not a threat. They do not cower or become fearful. There's a difference between communication and threats. A lot of people are strict with their dogs, use some punishment, but it still doesn't mean they're abusing their dogs. What I, for one of many see with CM, is that he IS over the top with psychological (primarily) mistreatment...and physical too.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #55  
Old 10-22-2009, 12:44 PM
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sometimes i really wish i had video of how luce acted toward other dogs when i first got her. she would have fit in cesar's show. i'm no fantastic trainer, but with the help of generic pet dog trainers, some books, and the support and advice of people online, was able to learn how to fix her behavior. with a clicker and treats no less. it wasn't dramatic though. really it was pretty boring. definitely would not have made for good tv.
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  #56  
Old 10-22-2009, 12:54 PM
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but with the help of generic pet dog trainers, some books, and the support and advice of people online, was able to learn how to fix her behavior. with a clicker and treats no less. it wasn't dramatic though. really it was pretty boring. definitely would not have made for good tv.
I think you're a wonderful trainer! I saw your video of some very nice heeling, lots of attention and most of all, a VERY engaged and entusiastic, willing dog. It shouldn't be about drama and threats. Like you said, that's all television hooplah. He sees everything as having to do with dominance...everything is about the dog challenging his owner. He uses a hammer on a push pin.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #57  
Old 10-22-2009, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
I think you're a wonderful trainer! I saw your video of some very nice heeling, lots of attention and most of all, a VERY engaged and entusiastic, willing dog. It shouldn't be about drama and threats. Like you said, that's all television hooplah. He sees everything as having to do with dominance...everything is about the dog challenging his owner. He uses a hammer on a push pin.
she's only engaged when she wants to be! she's still and always a jerk at heart. but i love her and she's such a fun dog. but teaching a nice heel in one's backyard with happy attention is easy. getting her to the point where she could walk down the street without acting like an idiot? that was a lot harder. and i learned so much more from that.

it would be so easy to label luce as "dominant" and make that her diagnosis for her bad behavior, to say that i need to be "more dominant" or whatever. show her who is boss. but in reality, that's not what she needed. she knows who the boss is, it just becomes irrelevant when her brain falls out because she's so overstimulated. she needed more than anything to be shown the right thing to do, and most of all she needed to learn some freaking self control. and it needed to be done slowly so that her brain could continue to function and she could actually learn.

i am so glad that i was taught that pretty early on. if i'd have ended up in the hands of a dominance type trainer, i might have truly turned her into a monster.

in the posted video with the husky-type dog, the whole scenario could have been avoided. if the owner had been handling that dog and hadn't had the self-preservation skills that cesar had, what would have happened? so dangerous and so unnecessary. i don't think that cesar meant at all for that dog to attack. his intention was to poke the dog to distract its attention away from the other dog. too bad for him that the dog was so overstimulated and it redirected. if you can't bite the one you want, bite the one you're with.

i had that happen with luce once on an infinitely smaller scale. i was incredibly upset. it's hard when you're part of a pit bull community that has zero tolerance for any kind of human-directed aggression. but she wasn't biting *me*, even it was my leg she nailed. she was just biting what was near her and moving.

i just took several steps back and continued working on desensitizing her to that kind of situation.
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  #58  
Old 10-22-2009, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
if you can't bite the one you want, bite the one you're with.


I am on dial up and can't load that video...now that I'm back home. But from your description, there is yet another episode that could have been avoided, as so many things I've seen him do. But again....no pain, no gain...no drama, no TV, no money.

I know what you mean about dog reactivity. I had my share of it with Lyric. It took time and he improved a lot, but was never completely Mr. Perfect. We simply didn't get enough practice around other dogs, here where I live. It's not fun. It's embarrassing and it takes time to help the dog get okay. I don't see any benefit in simply supressing the behavior temporarily. In our world of instant gratification, it is no wonder that a lot of people fall for that quick pseudo-fix.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #59  
Old 10-22-2009, 05:46 PM
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Now what I would like to see is Cesar who usually rehabs dog's that bite, are aggresive etc have a dog on the show that is totally unfriendly, very aggressive and a dog that no body would want to own train the dog and have Victoria Stillwell train the same type of dog on the same show and see whose dog is better behaved by them using their own methods. Which dog comes out on top of the behaviors corrected wins.
Before a winner is chosen, I then want a follow-up show six months later, when the dog is living and being handled by the owners again.

Quote:
i am so glad that i was taught that pretty early on. if i'd have ended up in the hands of a dominance type trainer, i might have truly turned her into a monster.
If I didn't love her more than just about anything on the planet, I'd send Meg to him for her dog issues just to see what he'd do. Forget learned helplessness, she can shut off like a light and refuse to exist when she's handled harshly. It makes the shut-off dogs I've seen on his show look like circus performers at showtime. As frustrating as it can be sometimes, it is also one of the best gifts she can give me or my future dogs. I've gotten to learn how to train using almost zero corrections. What a treat that will be for my future dogs!

"A punishment is a stimulus that decreases the immediately preceeding behavior such that it's less likely to occur in the future. It does not have to be nasty, scary, or painful. And I would say, if it doesn't have to be, then maybe it shouldn't be." - Ian Dunbar

It's not abuse to train your dog or teach them self control; I don't think you will find a person here who will tell you that it is. I'll call it abuse if you intimidate Lola into staying in her crate until you release her. I'll call it abuse if, when she goes after the wrong treat on the floor, you grab her by the neck and throw her away from it. If you are doing it in a positive way that makes it fun for the dog, it's just good training.
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Old 10-22-2009, 07:12 PM
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Before a winner is chosen, I then want a follow-up show six months later, when the dog is living and being handled by the owners again.



If I didn't love her more than just about anything on the planet, I'd send Meg to him for her dog issues just to see what he'd do. Forget learned helplessness, she can shut off like a light and refuse to exist when she's handled harshly. It makes the shut-off dogs I've seen on his show look like circus performers at showtime. As frustrating as it can be sometimes, it is also one of the best gifts she can give me or my future dogs. I've gotten to learn how to train using almost zero corrections. What a treat that will be for my future dogs!

"A punishment is a stimulus that decreases the immediately preceeding behavior such that it's less likely to occur in the future. It does not have to be nasty, scary, or painful. And I would say, if it doesn't have to be, then maybe it shouldn't be." - Ian Dunbar

It's not abuse to train your dog or teach them self control; I don't think you will find a person here who will tell you that it is. I'll call it abuse if you intimidate Lola into staying in her crate until you release her. I'll call it abuse if, when she goes after the wrong treat on the floor, you grab her by the neck and throw her away from it. If you are doing it in a positive way that makes it fun for the dog, it's just good training.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson
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