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  #141  
Old 10-25-2009, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Have you ever dealt with SA? I have and it is not easy and my dog has a very mild case of it. There is no way to 'fix' SA, just manage it. This was a big, strong dog that was intent on basically killing himself to get back to his owner every single time he was left alone. No kennels could hold him, he'd figure out ways to get out. He impaled himself on a piece of a metal kennel he'd busted once. His paws were completely bloody as were his gums from clawing and biting the entire time his owner was gone. I can't remember how many times he had to get stitches. He couldn't be left alone for a minute and the owner wasn't one that was out a lot either. She worked from home.

Are YOU willing to deal with a dog like that? I certainly don't know anyone that is and it's not like there are homes just lined up wanting a dog like this. It's inhumane to make a dog live in that state of panic. Eventually that dog was going to hurt himself to the point that it would kill him.
The first time I had to go out with Lola she was in the bedroom my cat had the run of the rest of the house. The cat was ok with dogs but I did not know how Lola would be with cats so I had her in the bedroom.

When I got home 2 hours later I tried to open the bedroom door but it was blocked so I pushed on the door real hard and got it open. Lola shredded the carpeting right behind the door and she also started scratching through the door. I knew at that point that she had SA along with other behaviors that she had. She would go into a full panic when I just left the room and be in the next room. My vet asked me if I wanted to rehome the dog as he knew someone with 4 Japanese Chins that was home all day and that she would be glad to take on Lola even with her SA.

I told him that I would not do that because when I make a commitment to an animal it is for life and I will get her through it and that is exactly what I did. I could leave her alone all day now and she doesn't bark, whine, cry, hurt herself or do any damage at all.

An owner of a dog with SA cannot go to work all day and then expect the dog to get over the SA. At the time I adopted Lola I was out of work due to a broken wrist so it gave me plenty of time to help her. So a dog with SA can get over the SA with the proper training and time and in a worse case scenario medication.
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  #142  
Old 10-25-2009, 03:16 PM
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LD.. what is your personal experience with dogs with severe problems?

(and did you read my post on PTsing Sammy...)
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  #143  
Old 10-25-2009, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dakota Spirit View Post
It's not just about having experience with dogs though. You need to have experience (or at least an understanding of) with how shelters are run, what kind of resources they have, what they are equipped to handle, etc.

And honestly, if you're going to be making big claims about what should and shouldn't be happening with these dogs then yes...you should be out there working to help them. The whole put your money where your mouth is idea.
I am out their helping them just not physically at a rescue. I talk to a lot of people about puppy mills, dog behavior, what is play and what is not play. I volunteer my dog as a therapy dog and the women that is in charge of the group has her own rescue group that I help out with also just not physically there. I help out in other ways such as fund raising for the dog therapy group as well as the rescue group. So not only am I putting my money where my mouth is I am also literally taking it from my pocket and handing it over.
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  #144  
Old 10-25-2009, 03:23 PM
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This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolas Dad View Post
When I got home 2 hours later I tried to open the bedroom door but it was blocked so I pushed on the door real hard and got it open. Lola shredded the carpeting right behind the door and she also started scratching through the door. I knew at that point that she had SA along with other behaviors that she had. She would go into a full panic when I just left the room and be in the next room.
isn't even remotely close to being this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
He impaled himself on a piece of a metal kennel he'd busted once. His paws were completely bloody as were his gums from clawing and biting the entire time his owner was gone. I can't remember how many times he had to get stitches. He couldn't be left alone for a minute and the owner wasn't one that was out a lot either. She worked from home.
A dog that impales himself, that is bloodied up, that needs stitches on several occasions is not going to be desensitized to being left alone and is better off being pts.

I've seen dogs do tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage to a home due to SA. Is keeping a dog alive worth having all of the plumbing and siding destroyed? What happens when the dog goes through a window and is now panic stricken and lost and playing in traffic?

A dog such as Laur describes absolutely has the potential to end up killing himself and it will be a far less humane death than euth would be.

Experience with aggression and SA is fine and wonderful. But have you seen dogs that are as extreme as Laur and Dekka have mentioned?? Would you be willing and able to own them?
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  #145  
Old 10-25-2009, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolas Dad View Post
The first time I had to go out with Lola she was in the bedroom my cat had the run of the rest of the house. The cat was ok with dogs but I did not know how Lola would be with cats so I had her in the bedroom.

When I got home 2 hours later I tried to open the bedroom door but it was blocked so I pushed on the door real hard and got it open. Lola shredded the carpeting right behind the door and she also started scratching through the door. I knew at that point that she had SA along with other behaviors that she had. She would go into a full panic when I just left the room and be in the next room. My vet asked me if I wanted to rehome the dog as he knew someone with 4 Japanese Chins that was home all day and that she would be glad to take on Lola even with her SA.

I told him that I would not do that because when I make a commitment to an animal it is for life and I will get her through it and that is exactly what I did. I could leave her alone all day now and she doesn't bark, whine, cry, hurt herself or do any damage at all.

An owner of a dog with SA cannot go to work all day and then expect the dog to get over the SA. At the time I adopted Lola I was out of work due to a broken wrist so it gave me plenty of time to help her. So a dog with SA can get over the SA with the proper training and time and in a worse case scenario medication.
Your Lola sounds on a similar level to my Summer which is NOWHERE near the severity of SA that this dog had. I too have worked through Summer's SA to the point that she no longer tries to tear down my door or goes into a panic when I leave. It was a lot of work to get there but that amount of work wouldn't have done it for this dog. I know because she put in a lot more work than I ever had to with Summer.
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  #146  
Old 10-25-2009, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
This:


isn't even remotely close to being this:



A dog that impales himself, that is bloodied up, that needs stitches on several occasions is not going to be desensitized to being left alone and is better off being pts.

I've seen dogs do tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage to a home due to SA. Is keeping a dog alive worth having all of the plumbing and siding destroyed? What happens when the dog goes through a window and is now panic stricken and lost and playing in traffic?

A dog such as Laur describes absolutely has the potential to end up killing himself and it will be a far less humane death than euth would be.

Experience with aggression and SA is fine and wonderful. But have you seen dogs that are as extreme as Laur and Dekka have mentioned?? Would you be willing and able to own them?
Well maybe you did not think that Lola had SA or was not severe but the vet sure did.

Was medication ever tried on the dog that would impale himself?. Was the dog re-homed to another person that would be home with him?. Oh that's right the owner had the dog put down and did not even try medication or did you leave that out.
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  #147  
Old 10-25-2009, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Lolas Dad View Post
I am out their helping them just not physically at a rescue. I talk to a lot of people about puppy mills, dog behavior, what is play and what is not play. I volunteer my dog as a therapy dog and the women that is in charge of the group has her own rescue group that I help out with also just not physically there. I help out in other ways such as fund raising for the dog therapy group as well as the rescue group. So not only am I putting my money where my mouth is I am also literally taking it from my pocket and handing it over.
This is all great, but not really what I meant. Working with Lola as a therapy dog for example, really does nothing for your experience with serious problem dogs. I'm not saying it's any less noble - it just doesn't relate to the situation being discussed here.

My point is, you don't seem to have any actual hands on experience with these dogs or really any connection to them. Yet you are so adamant about what should and shouldn't be happening to to them. So my question (or statement) was, if you really feel that way, why aren't YOU one of the people out there rehabbing these dogs? Why don't you get yourself trained and help in that way?

You keep speaking of mythical owners/trainers that are just going to come along and deal with these dogs...yet you don't seem to willing to take any of that work on yourself.
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  #148  
Old 10-25-2009, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolas Dad View Post
Well maybe you did not think that Lola had SA or was not severe but the vet sure did.

Was medication ever tried on the dog that would impale himself?. Was the dog re-homed to another person that would be home with him?. Oh that's right the owner had the dog put down and did not even try medication or did you leave that out.
Umm....

Quote:
Actually it is better for some dogs with SA to be put down too. Dogs with severe SA sometimes cannot be treated by meds or any other method we have. I have a friend that had a boxer mix with severe SA. She tried everything, behaviorists, every medication possible, rescue remedy, DAP, desensitizing and her dog was still injuring himself to the point of having to go to the emergency vet if she'd leave. He destroyed so many crates, even ones that were supposedly unbreakable. Imo it is not humane to keep a dog in that state of panic. She ended up having him pts because it really was the most humane thing to do for him.
She tried prozac and chlomicalm. Chlomicalm worked at first but then something triggered him to panic again and that's when he impaled himself. With this dog even though she was doing everything right he would just digress and digress until there just wasn't any hope.

But I don't really want to critique this person honestly. She did so much more for that dog than I have honestly ever seen someone do for a dog. He was a rescue and like that before she got him, though she didn't know it. When I found out Summer had SA, she was the first person I turned to because she really is the most well versed person on how to deal with SA. She really helped my dog overcome her SA.
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  #149  
Old 10-25-2009, 03:37 PM
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And you help them with money congratulations why not take what you offered Lola and foster some dogs to help them? Why not go to the kennel? Im sorry but thats usually alot more help over time then money.And proves alot more then throwing them some money. All kinds of people can throw hem money but not many are willing to actually HELP with the WORK.
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  #150  
Old 10-25-2009, 03:43 PM
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Another thing to think about is that person with the boxer then adopted a pittie that had been sitting in a shelter for months. He is a great dog with no real issues but he was languishing in a shelter for no fault other than his breed. To me that shows a lot of the problem out there...

If you haven't worked in a shelter or rescue, how can you know? I have and there are too many dogs pts that are stable and healthy. Why not save those? We really cannot save them all, we don't have the money or the space or the manpower. And if you're going to preach what everyone else is doing wrong, then you need to be doing something to help and change things.
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