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  #141  
Old 10-17-2009, 02:52 PM
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OK...

no more playing tug.
no more playing chase.
no more playing keep away.

No wonder Tyr disappeared for 2 hours a couple weeks ago. He's not able to have any fun here.

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  #142  
Old 10-17-2009, 03:26 PM
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No tug, no chase, no keep away. "What else can't we do Mom? No pretend bitey play, no play- growly talk? Too many regulations for me Mom." LOL.
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  #143  
Old 10-17-2009, 03:30 PM
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Now you guys are just making fun of Smkie. Nice.
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  #144  
Old 10-17-2009, 03:37 PM
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All with silly, good heartedness. Really. First, trying to make points, then being silly to reiterate the points. Not with malace in mind.
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  #145  
Old 10-17-2009, 03:50 PM
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You might want to rethink the "good heartedness" part. There's a difference of opinion, yeah. That's been long established. She's backed up her view points with valid sources, you all have backed up your points with your sources. She's not said "don't have fun with your dogs" just "wait until an appropriate time in age and training to introduce games that have caused issues in other dogs before." We all know that the trainers here have a great grasp on HOW to play these games, but not everyone does. Those same owners who will feed Purina because the commercials tell them it's great for their dogs, worship Ceasar Millan as the God of dog training and still think that everything their dog does is related to dominance are the same people who should not be playing tug, keep away or chase with their puppies. We've all agreed on that. But that IS the majority of the dog owning population out there, so her points and concerns are just as valid as those who are saying that it's not an issue when done CORRECTLY. THAT is the key word there.
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  #146  
Old 10-17-2009, 03:52 PM
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Neither Argon or Neon play tug. Actually, neither one has much interest in toys period. Argon has a very soft nature, and I haven't had enough time with the Neener to know what is his personality and what are fear based reactions.
Lilly, who was quite possibly the most stupendous dog who ever lived, loved to play tug. In other situations she was gentle enough to carry a balloon in her mouth, and take a treat so softly you never even felt her lips. We actually had a tug session the day we had her PTS and her eyes were shining.
Radar enjoys it, but because of his age and lack of teeth (We've tried everything, and the darn things keep falling out!), we don't play it any more. He is a bit more hard mouthed, but I think that's the terrier in him, more than the games we play.
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  #147  
Old 10-17-2009, 04:18 PM
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That's a matter of opinion too, Zoom, as to whether her sources are valid or not. I happen to disagree with her sources and with her position on the dangers of tug of war.

Like you say, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion about this and to which sources to give more weight. I happen to go along with those opinions of people highly eductated in animal behavior. She tends to go along with opinions of some trainers, of whom, I have no idea what their credentials are.

Yes, things can go wrong with tug of war if handled badly. (as can things go bad with anything, such as Dekka explained) But in my experience, that is extremely rare for the game of tug to present as dominance aggression. Like I have mentioned before, a lot of regular people, not particularly savvy with dog behavior, play with their dogs and nothing awful ever comes of it. Its been explained why it is not a dominance type of behavior. If a dog is already a resource guarder, that must be dealt with and as Corgi P. explained, even then this can be used as a training tool for that. The fact is that the vast majority of dogs will never develop dangerous behavior problems from playing the game, tug of war. There are many, many other things that contribute to rotten behavior that carry much more weight and significance.

Yes, we all have a right to our opinions. I've never denied anyone that, for heaven's sake. It's all in the interpretation, I guess as to how someone views "making fun" of someone or simply disagreeing with them. I don't need to re-think what I have in my mind or in my heart. I already knew what I felt like when I posted.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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Last edited by Doberluv; 10-17-2009 at 04:30 PM.
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  #148  
Old 10-17-2009, 04:43 PM
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What we know to be dominance aggression and what John Q. Public percieves as "dominance aggression" are two totally different things. I know the sources Smkie is speaking of, some of them personally. One of the main consulting trainers for Pets For Life is the same trainer I apprenticed under a couple of years ago, Mary Sellaro. She's been in the biz for over 20 years and I highly respect her opinion. Pets For Life in and of itself is not necessarily a training school. It's along the same lines as the Delta program, except with stricter requirements for passing and qualification. It's the main therapy dog program in Kansas City and surrounding.

Her old boss I never had the chance to meet but listening to what Smkie has told me of apprenticing under him and the awards his dogs have won and the fact that even years after his death, his dogs' lines are still being used for hardcore SAR, hunting and field trialing work speaks volumes to me as both a trainer and breeder.

So you disagree with her sources because you've never heard of them. I've never heard of half the people you've tossed out as proof (with the obvious exceptions like Pat Miller, etc) but I'm still willing to accept that they know what they're talking about.

The percentage of people having big issues with their dogs caused by improper tug, teasing meant as "games" etc might not be huge when taken in light with how many people "never" have issues, but how many of the former dogs have been dumped, PTS or abused because of mishandling in the early years? How many of the trainers here have dealt with dogs that have life-long issues stemming from improper introduction? I know Dr2Little has had a couple of those cases in the last year or so, including that one cockapoo many people here said to put down because it "was a biter and too big of a risk to rehome", when it was a dog who had been taught to severely resource guard because of improper handling due to the above?

So just because YOU or even your neighbors "never" had problems, doesn't mean those problems don't exist. Just because you and your neighbors don't have reactions to the H1N1 vaccine, doesn't mean that it's perfectly safe to recommend to everyone out there.

I'm in the camp that says if tug and associated games are introduced properly, it's fine. But again, 90% of the dog owning public are, for lack of a better word, morons when it comes to "proper" play and training. They might be morons due to lack of misinformation or just sheer ignorance, but the fact remains that there are loads of unstable dogs out there because the owners messed up with simple games at crucial stages.
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  #149  
Old 10-17-2009, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Tug of war makes your dogs mean!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's what my relatives believe.
I play tug of war daily with my dogs. And I don't understand how it can make them mean! Any ideas? Has anyone ever heard of this?

They heard Ruckus and Lynn growling and really putting on a show during tug of war and they said "See, you are making them mean!"
I think this is just ignorance on their part, but I didnt know what to say back other than "No, its not"
so what does, or doesnt tug of war make a dog mean?

when we play tug, the game starts and stops when I say. We all take turns winning and losing. The dogs never bite my hand by accident, even though I do play with both dogs at the save time. I can take it away from them when I ask for it with no problem.
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This is not just about my dogs or my neighbors' dogs. I've been very involved with a large number of dogs owned by all kinds of owners for 40-50 years Zoom. So, don't presume to think you know where my experience and education lies.

Tug of war, in and of itself, in general, is highly unlikey to make a dog "mean." Period. There are a lot of other factors that are likely to play into ruining a dog. And a lot of worse things people do to create an unstable dog, along with a dog's temperament.

I think the OP should be re-read and let's keep this in context. To answer the op's question, in the context presented and based on the information given, my answer still stands as, "no."
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #150  
Old 10-17-2009, 05:02 PM
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I had a man who called me for a puppy and I told him I wouldn't be breeding for at least a year . I had no litters I could recommend but I guess he ended up getting a Golden mill puppy . He called me back about a years later with a problem . The dog was biting at his and he wife's hands . First thing I asked was what types of games he played with the pup .......he wore gloves and played tug and play !! After a 1/2 lecture he finally admited he should have been smarter !
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