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  #21  
Old 09-24-2009, 09:56 PM
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OutlineACDs OutlineACDs is offline
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Did you happen to ask the breeder her future plans with this dog? If not, you have no reason to criticize. A very close friend had a bitch she was showing, the bitch was pointed. It came time to do the health tests and she didn't pass her OFA hips. After much heartache on the part of my friend, she decided to go ahead and finish this bitch and then spay her. She was never bred, but she finished with the owner knowing full well that she hadn't passed her hip exams. She never hid it from anyone, and when people would approach her at shows to comment and ask about puppies she told them exactly why she wasn't breeding this bitch.

You can't judge a book by its cover, and I'm not saying this lady was in the right, but if you don't have the full story, you shouldn't comment.

I know lots of people are down on conformation breeders. When you breed for ONE thing, then yeah other things fall by the wayside. I have seen plenty of people breeding working dogs with no health testing because "They work good, there must be nothin' wrong." Crock of crap there too. If you don't test you don't know. Period. The working breeder who neglects testing is just as bad as the conformation breeder who neglects function.
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  #22  
Old 09-24-2009, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
To me the biggest issue is breeding so young. That's what gets me hung up the most. If that part at least were fixed, I'd feel a lot better about this. I honestly don't care about showing, but I do think it's somewhat deceitful to be selling dogs as show dogs when you aren't showing or their parents aren't showing, etc.

I understand no one is perfect but those two things really don't sit well with me.
Yup. I don't care if you show or don't. I don't care whether or not you title in performance venues. But I do care if you offer the pups as "prospects" for something specific when the parents haven't been proven in that. Show prospects should have show Ch's for parents and for most of their ancestry. Agility prospects should have a long list of ancestors with high level agility titles and preferably agility championships. Obedience prospects should have a pedigree filled with UD's+. Pets should have ancestors with TT's, CGC's, etc. And they all should have proof of health testing.
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  #23  
Old 09-24-2009, 10:07 PM
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I have to agree- showing isn't the be all end all. It's just one way of proving your dog is worthy of breeding.

There's also working your dog, or doing agility, or schutzhund training...whatever it is that tickles you.

But, you've gotta do SOMETHING with your dogs. And you've gotta health test.
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  #24  
Old 09-24-2009, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sammgirl View Post
I have to agree- showing isn't the be all end all. It's just one way of proving your dog is worthy of breeding.

There's also working your dog, or doing agility, or schutzhund training...whatever it is that tickles you.

But, you've gotta do SOMETHING with your dogs. And you've gotta health test.
this is how I exactly how I feel about it. you've gotta do SOMETHING

those who are looking for "just a pet" can go to the MANY great show, working, or sport breeders. many pups that aren't great for the show ring or w/e it may be, are sold to great homes as pets.
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  #25  
Old 09-25-2009, 12:00 AM
Pops2 Pops2 is offline
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Originally Posted by OutlineACDs View Post
When you breed for ONE thing, then yeah other things fall by the wayside. I have seen plenty of people breeding working dogs with no health testing because "They work good, there must be nothin' wrong." Crock of crap there too. If you don't test you don't know. Period. The working breeder who neglects testing is just as bad as the conformation breeder who neglects function.
this isn't 100 % accurate. some work eliminates the need for testing as the work will show the defect.
for example sighthounds have low incidence of HD and running game 3+ days (nights) a week or racing will breakdown a dog w/ HD in a year or so & cause it to fail at it's job. that means by the time a gyp or young dog has reached breeding age (by performance not physiology) you'll know most of the obvious health issues & so only need to test for late onset conditions & communicable disease. this is equally true of scenttrailing breeds that are used on hard running game. weight pulling, carting or sledding extensively will also breakdown a dog pretty quickly. the conditioning that went into prepping a pit dog back in the day went a long way toward eliminating HD/ED from some lines. this is equally true of cardiovascular issues in most of these fields.
von wilbrands won't last long in dogs used on dangerous game as it will kill the dogs off. it'll struggle to exist in any field dog breed unless a single carrier stud gets overbred (common in birddogs and competition hounds & curs).
all of that said, i agree there are a lot of junk breeders in hounds & curs (mostly it is guys paying to breed their mediocre bitch/gyp to winning competition dogs). fewer in working sighthounds (i think the lack of financial incentive from sales or competition wins has a lot to do with this) & working type terriers (like pats, and the few imported borders). no disrespect to the JRT, as a whole they got screwed by popularity but there is tons of good blood in this breed.
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  #26  
Old 09-25-2009, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by OutlineACDs View Post
Did you happen to ask the breeder her future plans with this dog? If not, you have no reason to criticize.
I agree. The owner of Uno, the beagle who won Westminster, has chosen not to breed him, ever. I don't know why, but it was a very controversal decision and I respect the owner for sticking to what she believes.

Though I'm suprised this dog won if his gait was wonky. Maybe it's true that the other dachshunds were even worse than he was.
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  #27  
Old 09-25-2009, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by lizzybeth727 View Post

Though I'm suprised this dog won if his gait was wonky. Maybe it's true that the other dachshunds were even worse than he was.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this one of the very reasons why Kennel Club bench showing is flawed? That by going to known shows with poor quality dogs that a person can Title such a dog? Nothing like being the best of the worst!!

The beagle that you spoke of, if they knew there was something wrong with that dog BEFORE Westminister and then said they were not going to bred him is wrong (if that is the case). If they found out something after the fact then it is a different story and that should be respected. Also why wouldn't they state WHY the dog is now non breeding, considering that shows such as Westminister are suppose to be the show case of the top breeding dogs, not the soon to be s/n.

Interesting story, I'll have to check it out, thanks.
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  #28  
Old 09-25-2009, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by adojrts View Post
Also why wouldn't they state WHY the dog is now non breeding, considering that shows such as Westminister are suppose to be the show case of the top breeding dogs, not the soon to be s/n.
I didn't say that they haven't said why they're not breeding the dog, I said that I don't know why they're not breeding the dog. It's not an area I have a lot of interest in so I haven't done research myself, I've just heard that they're not breeding him.
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  #29  
Old 09-25-2009, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by adojrts View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this one of the very reasons why Kennel Club bench showing is flawed? That by going to known shows with poor quality dogs that a person can Title such a dog? Nothing like being the best of the worst!!
I guess it would depend on the breed but I think it'd be darn hard to do this in my breed and in my area. You need a pretty ridiculous amount of dogs to beat to get a major. Maybe you could scratch a few points without going up against many other good dogs, but around here at least you have to beat a lot to get a major. Beau's 2 majors were over 50 something other dogs.
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  #30  
Old 09-25-2009, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
I guess it would depend on the breed but I think it'd be darn hard to do this in my breed and in my area. You need a pretty ridiculous amount of dogs to beat to get a major. Maybe you could scratch a few points without going up against many other good dogs, but around here at least you have to beat a lot to get a major. Beau's 2 majors were over 50 something other dogs.


Charlie's breeder has been working with goldens for over 30 years. When I asked her how hard it was to finish a golden with them being so common, she pointed at a beautiful golden and said that it took 184 shows for her to get her three majors. She said that it gets to a point where you are competing against so many dogs, that there will be an entire tier of dogs competing who are all about equal quality. At that stage it all becomes about the handling, the grooming, the impeccable behavior in the ring, who the handler is, etc. when selecting BOB.

Also, I hate how a breeder with crappy dogs can go to a smaller show and enter half a dozen of their crappy dogs, to build a major for one of their crappy dogs to win over. It happens, and it sucks. I really don't like that system of judging.

Both are reasons I am a big fan of competing against a standard, instead of each other.
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