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  #31  
Old 09-12-2009, 10:38 AM
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planet molosser planet molosser is offline
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ok to me when you dog is happy to walk away with the sleeve as man is crouching underneath your porch the dog is not working in defense.
Thus very happy with the sleeve. Where if given the sleeve most all my dogs Spit sleeve out and go for bad guy. IF bad guy did not leave after first whatever bite.

I will say this maybe my generalizations to cut posts short are taken wrong.
And I should explain- but i was trying so hard not to do your dog vs my dog.
I was trying to protect my dogs and breed from BSL when info you posted will and can harm them and kill them in shelters.

Difference between CAS and GSD is their are tons of Great GSDS out there owned by great people. And when someone posts lies like "GSDS are this or that " you have a well beyond well established community to counter the wrong info. In CAS you have me in USA.

We have had dogs DIE in shelters cause the shelter worker- found a variety of the breed used by the Russian and ghettos for wrong reasons.
They KILLED that dog based on what they found online.

If this was a closed forum I would of let u have the last word even if wrong.
But im figthing for my breed not to win a debate with you.
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Last edited by planet molosser; 09-12-2009 at 11:27 AM.
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  #32  
Old 09-12-2009, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet molosser View Post
ok to me when you dog is happy to walk away with the sleeve as man is crouching underneath your porch the dog is not working in defense.
Thus very happy with the sleeve. Where if given the sleeve most all my dogs Spit sleeve out and go for bad guy. IF bad guy did not leave after first whatever bite.

I will say this maybe my generalizations to cut posts short are taken wrong.
And I should explain- but i was trying so hard not to do your dog vs my dog.
I was trying to protect my dogs and breed from BSL when info you posted will and can harm them and kill them in shelters.

Difference between CAS and GSD is their are tons of Great GSDS out there owned by great people. And when someone posts lies like "GSDS are this or that " you have a well beyond well established community to counter the wrong info. In CAS you have me in USA.

We have had dogs DIE in shelters cause the shelter worker- found a variety of the breed used by the Russian and ghettos for wrong reasons.
They KILLED that dog based on what they found online.

If this was a closed forum I would of let u have the last word even if wrong.
But im figthing for my breed not to win a debate with you.
You don't get it at all. Maybe the GSD's you know and worked were happy to get the sleeve and run around and have fun. The GSD's I know do not stop with the sleeve. They spit it out and continue going after the man. I had a decoy make a mistake one time while he was working my dog. He got the sleeve and spit it right out and went after the decoy who had not backed away the the dog bit him in the upper thigh. He still has the scar. You want to tell that guy that the GSD is sleeve happy and won't continue to go after him?

If you are trying to protect your dogs from BSL then stop posting about how they will take it upon themselves to bite intruders. Stop posting about how they are so naturally protective that you don't have to train them. Keep posting about your show dogs and TDI dogs- those are the ones that need to be brought into the public eye.
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  #33  
Old 09-12-2009, 01:08 PM
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So now Im now allowed to post the standard the history or the truth.
I have to post a trick vs the function of the dog. why so I dont take away from the GSD.

Accroding to Dan i should focus on my show wins and my TDI 2 out of 10.
So this way when they get home the TDI SHOW dog and the neighbor trespasses and gets bit. They can say DAN told my breeder not to post the dogs real temperament and to post about how great they looking WINNING a show I assumed I was getting a show dog.

You stated shows can ruin working dogs this type of complete ignorance is what ruins breeds.
And you called working competitive people are WORSE than the show folk you blame for the ruination of the GSD. Both sides in extremes is about MONEY and Power not about preserving the breed.

PS We have a show tdi breeder and they cant sell a pup if her life depended on it .
Why? cause he people I sell dont could give a rats ass how many shows i win.
They want protection.......
Plus not just anyone can show a CAS or a Fila for that matter.

Quickest way to RUIN any breed is to breed just for SOFT temperaments to increase the marketing and thus sales for the breed.

Sorry u r barking up wrong tree I dont breed for show + i have dogs that will NEVER show.
I breed them for Protection and if that bothers the GSD people so much .

All of you have LIED and stated I attacked the GSD to get newcomerswho own GSD to
come to your rescue. PROVE I ATTACKED THE GSD.

Here is the original thread.
I was invited to talk
And the poster has thanked me for posting and was happy with my answers
And is not getting a CASD and likes the GSD.
i never would answer the same question from a GSD person.
I answered her

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t104661-9/
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  #34  
Old 09-12-2009, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanL View Post

If you are trying to protect your dogs from BSL then stop posting about how they will take it upon themselves to bite intruders. Stop posting about how they are so naturally protective that you don't have to train them. Keep posting about your show dogs and TDI dogs- those are the ones that need to be brought into the public eye.
Dans says this today

Look what he said yesterday

u are lucky that your dog has not been "discovered" by the show ring breeders and had it's great traits bred down to create a fluffy teddy bear that looks nice in the show ring and can't do anything else except sell puppies to the public

U think u could make up your mind?

BSL is caused by ignorance . Marketing them as a gun or war or macho name is wrong. But it is JUST as wrong as marketing the breed as show therapy dogs based on the few that do that trick.
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  #35  
Old 09-12-2009, 02:04 PM
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Well these threads are interesting lol, I go away and when I come back look what awaits me. First of all PM, DanL didn't contradict himself there. If you've got it don't flaunt it. Remember that. It's good that your dogs will bite but keep it on the down-low, is what he's saying.

Anyways, my $3.50. You'll notice I use the conditional tense pretty heavily, because let's face it, there are about 3 billion variables with any sort of factual statement I make.

A dog that runs away with the sleeve is not in defense, no. I don't think anyone can argue that. You see this with a dog that has undergone training, where he is taught to see the sleeve as a prey item. I have never seen a dog that saw people as prey items without being taught so. Between socialization and teaching a pup proper manners, a normal GSD is not going to go around running down joggers because it looks at them as prey. Additionally, something from way back there- the herding GSD is not supposed to nip sheep, it is supposed to (genetically) take full grips. I quote:
Quote:
These puppy tests show which puppies will have more or less hectic(damaging) bites, which will have shallow(damaging) bites, which will have full-mouth(proper) bites and most important which puppies will hold on to the sheep come hell or high water and fight with all their might to hold on - and which won't.
And I'm pretty confident that these folks know their biz:Large flock herding dogs - Nickelsberg's Farm A dog in prey drive uses a full mouth. For instance, when my dog bites the llamas, he grabs as much wool as he can, bites and holds on. The dog in prey drive commits (or in the case of something like a rabbit he might bite, release, chase, bite, etc.) because he is having fun.

As to your "guy-hiding-under-the-porch" scenario, if this is an untrained GSD he is going to be working in defense, same as your guardian breed. Actually, there a ton of dogs that will be working in defense at this point. That might be really weak defense (20 ft away, wo-wo-wo-wo-woo barks, hackles up, sideways head, etc), or it could be very strong defense (CHOMP).

Your guardian dog, if he is a solid dog, will probably deliver a bite at this point. Depending on your GSD's genetics (is he a nervy puss?) and/or how he was raised (was he smacked for even nibbling on people?), he might stand a few feet away and "bay" the person. Hackles up, deep low bark. If he is very confident, assertive, or doesn't have such a strong bite inhibition, he might nail the guy. If the guy screams and flails (prey drive triggers), said GSD's defensive thoughts might start being replaced with "this is great fun!" If this is to happen, said GSD is not looking at the guy's sweater or sleeve as a prey item, he is looking at the guy as one. Like if you put the untrained dog in with a herd of sheep, and the dog starts chasing them, bites and gets a mouthful of wool, he is going to spit it out asap and chase the sheep again, unless he was after the wool to begin with (he wasn't lol).

If instead of screaming the guy makes loud noises, makes himself scary, chokes and kicks the dog, your confident but untrained GSD might come off the bite, and bark/bay, maybe with some more shallow bites. Your guardian breed might not, I am not an expert on them by any means.

If the guy doesn't do anything, slips his sleeve, and procedes to try and creep into your house, your GSD is not working in prey drive and he still considers this strange man a threat, and he will probably what he did before.

So if you want to have some peace of mind that your GSD will deliver, you need to show him that it is OK to bite humans in some circumstances. Strip away some of that inhibition. If trained correctly, the dog looks at the man as the thing he is biting, even if he is getting a mouthful of sleeve. If trained incorrectly, well, your decoy might as well just be holding a tug or a bucketful of gerbils instead of wearing the sleeve, because the dog doesn't know he's supposed to be biting the man. That is your sleeve-happy dog.

If trained correctly, the GSD will have a better idea of what he is supposed to do with your man under the porch, and he will be more confident in the bite, if there is one. But as an untrained dog, he won't be useless.

Yup. That's my $3.
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  #36  
Old 09-12-2009, 02:21 PM
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You cant compare a a full mouth grip on a sleeve and a out command or giving the dog the sleeve to a grip and release of a herding dog.
They grip using he front teeth not the molars GOD I can just see my $300 ewe having her leg snapped off so the dog can get a FULL grip
yeah that is cost effective for a farmer.

Ive attended herding trials, I Breed sheep ive seen them Herding
They do not HOLD on to sheep the grip is the last resort when the sheep wont move where they want too . Normallly they do that to one sheep and the rest fall in line by being chased via herding barking countering and nipping.

The shepherd try to tune down the grips with training.
They FILE down the insizors to reduce damage to the sheep.

You cant really compare man work to herding.

the creator of the GSD last printed words were to keep the dogs WORKING
He never invisioned in any of his published words the sport the breed is used for today,
Did he know that missconceptions of what bite work would come ? or did he just not think that dogs would be graded on how long they stay on the bite. As evident by
dans commentary on how bad the videos work was in Germany in 1936"

If full mouth deap bites were were a pre requisted for the GSD.'
You think we would see training for it or mention of it by he breeds creator.
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Last edited by planet molosser; 09-12-2009 at 02:52 PM.
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  #37  
Old 09-12-2009, 02:32 PM
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Quotes from online NOTHING from me will hit my books next again

Herding dogs chase things that move. Including running feet, bicycles, cars, skateboards, joggers, balls and Frisbees. Many of these dogs nip at the heels of humans the way they nip at the heels of livestock. Running children who emit high-pitched sounds can be favorite targets

Herding dogs are actually a subcategory from the working dog. However, they are separate out as they are specifically trained to herd or have the instinct to herd. Herding dogs are capable to herd a variety of livestocks, for example, cattle, lamb, goats and even poultry. Some of the breeds are more suitable to herd certain livestock better compare to others due to their physical characteristic and herding style. Some of the dog used heel-nipping to move the livestock, some of them used their strong eyes to stare to control the livestock direction of movement, and some even jump on the back of the live stock to herd them. These styles are called heel, head and back respectively. All herding behavior is modified predatory behavior.
Below shows the Dog Breed List for Herding Group (for the AKC):
German Shepherd Dog

German Shepherds: What's Good About 'Em? What's Bad About 'Em?
German Shepherds
What's good about 'em
What's bad about 'em
If you want a dog who...

Is strong, athletic, and natural-looking
Thrives on challenging activities and exercise
Looks stern and imposing, so makes an effective deterrent
Is exceptionally versatile -- when well-trained, can learn and do almost anything
A German Shepherd may be right for you.

If you don't want to deal with...

An extremely careful search to avoid all the bad-tempered and unhealthy German Shepherds
Vigorous exercise requirements
Rowdiness and exuberant jumping, especially when young
Destructiveness when bored or not exercised enough
Aggression or shyness toward people in some lines, or when not socialized enough
Aggression toward other animals
Chasing and nipping at things that move: children, joggers, other animals, bikes, cars Constant heavy shedding
Legal liabilities (public perception, future breed bans, insurance problems, increased chance of lawsuits)
A multitude of serious health problems
A German Shepherd may not be right for you.

If I were considering a German Shepherd...


My major concerns would be:


Unstable temperaments. German Shepherd Dogs are a dime a dozen, and most of them are bred and offered for sale by people who don't have the slightest idea of how to breed good-tempered dogs. Obedience instructors and behavioral consultants see LOTS of German Shepherds with neurotic behaviors, including aggression, biting, sharpness, and/or extreme fearfulness.

To teach your German Shepherd to listen to you, "Respect Training" is mandatory. My German Shepherd Training Page discusses the program you need.


Providing enough exercise and mental stimulation. German Shepherds MUST have regular opportunities to vent their energy and do interesting things. Otherwise they will become rambunctious and bored -- which they usually express by destructive chewing. Bored German Shepherds can make a shambles of your house and yard.

If you simply want a pet for your family, and don't have the time or inclination to take your dog running or hiking or biking or swimming, or to get involved in agility (obstacle course), or advanced obedience, or schutzhund (protection), or herding, or tracking, or a similar canine activity, I do not recommend this breed.


Providing enough socialization. Most German Shepherds have protective instincts toward strangers. They need extensive exposure to friendly people so they learn to recognize the normal behaviors of "good guys." Then they can recognize the difference when someone acts abnormally. Without careful socialization, they may be suspicious of everyone, which could lead to biting. Some German Shepherds go in the opposite direction -- without enough socialization, they become fearful of strangers, which can lead to defensive biting.

Animal aggression. Some German Shepherds are dominant or aggressive toward other dogs of the same sex. Some have strong instincts to chase and seize cats and other fleeing creatures. If anything goes wrong in the breeding, socializing, training, handling, or management of this breed, it is capable of seriously injuring or killing other animals.

Heavy shedding. German Shepherds shed only once a year -- for 365 days. In other words, they shed constantly. You'll find hair and fur all over your clothing, upholstery, carpeting, under your furniture, on your countertops -- even in your food. Frequent vaccuming will become a way of life. Make sure you're REALLY up for this.

Serious health problems. From hip and elbow problems, to bone diseases and cancer, to stomach disorders and skin diseases, German Shepherds are one of the riskiest of all breeds in the health department.

To keep this breed healthy, I strongly recommend following all of the advice on my German Shepherd Health Page.


Legal liabilities. German Shepherds may be targeted for "banning" in certain areas, or refusal of homeowner insurance policies. In this day and age, the legal liabilities of owning any breed that looks intimidating and has a history as a guard dog should be seriously considered. People are quicker to sue if such a dog does anything even remotely questionable.

STAY AWAY from breeders advertising "oversized" or "giant" German Shepherds. This breed was intended to be MEDIUM-sized, athletic, and agile -- its frame and joints were never designed to handle 120+ pounds.

Not all German Shepherds are alike!

There are energetic German Shepherds, and placid ones.
Hard-headed German Shepherds, and sweet-natured German Shepherds.
Serious German Shepherds, and good-natured goofballs.
Introverted German Shepherds, and German Shepherds who love everyone.

If you acquire a German Shepherd puppy, you can't know for sure what he or she will grow up to be like. Because a good number of purebred puppies do NOT grow up to conform to the "norm."
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  #38  
Old 09-12-2009, 03:17 PM
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It is NOT my man under the porch it is DANs.

My dog would NOT turn around and have the sleeve as he leaves.

He would spit the sleeve out after he bit is half whole whatever cause he is fed the sleeve.
Once it is his he drops and goes for the stranger hiding under the porch.

LGDS dont stay on the bite it would KILL them in real life
you would not have to wait for u to hit them. They will strike u with their body and paws and teeth quicker than u can take a swing. They do NO fixate on the arm. They 1st objective loose is to knock u down hard, then to tooth butt and if u want more they go for bites and shakes and do NOT hold unless they have a Coyote half thier size under them in a grip on the neck . NO need to release and re grip the predator is dead.

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t83731/

My dog would NOT be happy with the sleeve.
Amd the bad guy is still there in striking distance of is human cause he got his reward.

Ps the link is pics not video im quite sure the dog was commanded off showing the complete control the GSD is supposed to have.

However insert CAS .
NO pic of the dog holding on to the sleeve longer than a second.
No pic of the dog ever turning his back on guy under porch.
No pic of dog barking and holding if on property ( different if off property but same effect)
No pic of leashed dog but dog checking fencing with me and finds intruder.

Pic of me saving bad guy from serious injury by using a tone that makes them STOp long enough to get HOLD of them. Next pic wont be bark hold or lunge jut a dog that would push me back and growl with no bark. I would then ordered the bad guy who was just sleeping in wrong place. By holding the dog fixated on them.

I see nothing wrong with what Dans dog is doing it is what he wants.
It showed work and dedication not all who buy a GSD simply are going to do.

I want a natural protectior and I should have a rigth to be able to talk of them without being compared to a dog sport made for GSDS.
CAS rarely hackle you wont find hackles in the PP pics or videos.
Ive seen a CAS hackle one time in a show ring I was so upset I started to correct the dog she was barking and hackling.... And the judge tapped my should and said NO look. Thru the crowd in the area she was alerting on out walked a leashed Siberian tiger.
She was 11 months she has NOT hackled since. Well that was the last Tiger we saw.

PS we had hunters tresspass and was able to call the dog off with NO official training.
And when they started screaming they had a right to hunt on my property and the dog got agiated. I left and reported them I had no doubt if they came for me the dog would protect.
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  #39  
Old 09-12-2009, 06:20 PM
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ANDY!!!

Since we got on the topic of a GSD being happy with the sleeve and not working in defense, have you noticed that most of the time as soon as the sleeve is slipped the decoy becomes nuetral (not frontal, may walk away back towards dog, NO WAY that warrants defense). No threat no need for defense. Just a thought .
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Old 09-12-2009, 06:44 PM
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BTW

I believe YOU, PM brought up Schutzhund. I thought we were discussing PPD's...

Also YOU are the one that started comparing breeds. I said absolutely NOTHING about you breed (stating I know nothing about them) but corrected your "facts" about MY breed.

I feel like a broken record, but I feel it must be said AGAIN. NO ONE is denying the fact that your dogs are real protection dogs. I think the point is that BOTH breeds are capable of protection, granted they have different styles but both are capable. Unfortunately you want everyone to believe that GSD's are horrible protectors with no natural instincts and cant do the job. Obviously we have different opinions. Also you made some far fetched comments that were inacurate and will not address those issues. Instead of addressing those simply questions you got defensive and so here we are...

Another thing, you talk about BSL and how we made comments (I would like to know what comments you are reffering to) that will get your dogs killed in shelters?? but you are the one doing the bad publicity. You've admitted through these posts that your breed are a defensive breed VERY capable of guarding and have no control (no training=no control to the public). They bite on their own, do not look to you for command or approval=liability. That does NOT look good for public image.

Lets get off your breed (so you cant wrongfully accuse someone of making inacurate comments), address the false/inacurate comments you made about the GSD (instincts and bite) and get on with it.
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