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Old 08-12-2009, 11:52 AM
sammgirl sammgirl is offline
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Hi Pops (and everyone)

I got some clarifications on some things, and wanted to share them with everyone.

Here is what Pops said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
Sammgirl

the sammy at the bottom of your posts is a perfect example of how ignorance of function will adversely affect form. as beautiful as that big puffy coat is, it allows too much heat to escape which melts snow allowing it to become water soaked and lose it's insulating properties. compare it to the coats of actual dogs kept by Saami people. those dogs have a flat dense coat that traps heat well and shed moisture to maintain insulation. a true Saami dog wouldn't even be recognized as such by the AKC especially since they come in colors not just white. now i know the majority of sammys are not that exaggerated and alot is grooming but i have seen enough that were naturally powder puffs to know some of it is breeding.
FTR the sammys i have met are very nice dogs & i am not saying they are anything. what i am saying is one specific trait that is in some cases bred for is counterproductive to the breeds theoretical survival needs.


I didn't send a link to this place, but I did directly quote pops and sent it to the contacts I've made in the samoyed community. I will show you the responses I've received:

To clarify, each quote is from a different response from a different person. Names have been with held.

Quote:
There might be a bit of truth in that, JMHO...
Quote:
I don't buy into the bit about insulating coats. The fluff he describes on
domestic Sammies is all guard hair. It traps some heat and reflects the sun
but it does an excellent job of shedding snow too. It's the dense undercoat
that really does the insulating and most show dogs have the majority of this
brushed out but left in the wild even a domestic Sam could survive and grow
back his wooly undercoat pretty quickly.

Here are some pictures of Samoyeds in their homeland.

Angus the samoyed on the Samsite

Samsite the home of Ziggy the Samoyed
Quote:
Here's a link with pictures of Samoyeds in Russia; as you can see the Samoyed in 1962 Russia looks remarkably like the Samoyeds of today.

Photo's of the Samoyed Homeland (circa 1962)

>>From the FCI-Standard
BRIEF HISTORICAL SUMMARY : The name Samoyed derives from the Samoyed Tribes in Northern Russia and Siberia. In Southern parts of the area they used white, black and brown parti-coloured dogs as reindeer herders ; in the northern parts the dogs were pure white, had a mild temperament and were used as hunting- and sledge dogs. The Samoyed dogs lived close to their owners, they even slept within the shelters and were used as heaters. The British zoologist Ernest Kilburn Scott spent three months among Samoyed Tribes in 1889. Returning to England he brought with him a brown male puppy called " Sabarka ". Later he imported a cream coloured bitch called " Whitey Petchora " from the western side of the Urals and a snow white male called " Musti " from Siberia. These few dogs and those brought by the explorers are the base for the western Samoyed. The first standard was written in England in 1909.>>

As you can see in the history; the white color was a "natural" in the Samoyed as far as the 1800, as well as mixed colors. The Kilburn Scotts thought the white/cream with the black lip and eyeliner and the black nose made a striking picture and that lead to the Samoyed we have today.

As for the coat, the Samoyed working in Siberia isn't groomed like the family pets we have today. Talk to Donald Duncan about the 20th century Samoyeds and the snow...he's done 2(?) Serum Runs from Nenana to Nome with an all Samoyed team.
Serum Run - Iditarod Trail Nenana to Nome

Last edited by sammgirl; 08-12-2009 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:56 AM
sammgirl sammgirl is offline
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Quote:
>* as beautiful as that big puffy coat is, it allows too much heat to escape
>which melts snow allowing it to become water soaked and lose it's insulating
>properties. compare it to the coats of actual dogs kept by Saami people.
>those dogs have a flat dense coat that traps heat well and shed moisture to
>maintain insulation. a true Saami dog wouldn't even be recognized as such by
>the AKC especially since they come in colors not just white. now i know the


A true Nenets dog (the Saami is a different tribe with different dogs -
the English buying the dogs were told wrong by the Russian traders) has an
undercoat which is matted down to the skin by mid-fall and felts in all the
nice rain. Then the dog's coat blows just a bit at the end of Fall so the
dog is wearing a waterproof felted coat with a nice bit of air trapped up
against the skin. Even if they fall through ice into one of the rivers,
they usually come out dry at the skin.

Really, this guy is confused on so many levels, just don't engage with him.
It's not worth the trouble.
Quote:
Welcome to the breed! According to my research and history, your instincts are right on. You will get much better/acurate information from samfans than what you are getting from this guy!
Quote:
I think s/he might be referring to one particular specimen. Some breeders breed for the longer coats which is the incorrect coat.
I don't see how this person can make judgement as to whether the coat is correct without going over it.
He is confusing the Samoyed people with the Saami/Sami people
Saami people are generally Finnish but also occupy a peninsula of Russia but a different region of Russia than the Nenet / Samoyed people and have different dogs
Sami people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nenets people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Samoyed has a harsh waterproof outer coat which protects it from snow and rain. The soft fluffy undercoat acts as insulation and keeps the dog warm. It also has silver tips in the outer coat to reflect the sun's rays. The tail also has a use in cold climes as Samoyeds may sleep with their tails over their noses to provide additional warmth and protect their nose and eyes from frost bite. The Samoyed dog has changed very little except that todays Samoyed has been enhanced because of the breed standard laid down at the beginning of the 20th century . He could still do a good days work, hauling, herding and hunting
You could point out though that the Saami or Sami are not the same people as the Samoyed/Nenet folk who gave their name to the Samoyed and that they occupy a different region of Russia
Quote:
I doubt that Samoyeds did much swimming in the Arctic winter E.V. as it was probably frozen.
In summer the tribes used to shave their sams so the problem never arose
A Sam covered in snow will shake it off as it does not penetrate the coat.
Mud also brushes out easily when dry which proves it stays on the surface unless of course they have had a mud bath or rolled in muck
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:58 AM
sammgirl sammgirl is offline
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So, there you have it from the horse's (or breed club's) mouth.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:02 PM
sammgirl sammgirl is offline
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A modern samoyed in its primitive habitat.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:11 PM
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Interesting topic.. I've never paid much attention to Zero's fur in the snow, so I can't give any personal experiences, but his coat is very much longer and poofier than it's supposed to be. This year when the snow rolls in, I'm going to observe how it works. From what I can sort of recall, his coat repels moisture pretty well but I could be way of base on that one.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:13 PM
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He says:
Quote:
now i know the majority of sammys are not that exaggerated and alot is grooming but i have seen enough that were naturally powder puffs to know some of it is breeding.
So he says that they dont' all have that coat and that it is largely grooming.
He says a puffy coat won't insulate.
If you look at the native dog links Pops seems to be right. They all have flattish coats.
One of the replies states the the Samoyed is the same as it always was, but "enhanced." Lol I've heard that one before. Ask them how the Samoyed is enhanced. Is he prettier, can he work better?
I really don't get what their problem is with the insulating thing.

Alright, he was wrong about the origins, but as far as the coat goes? The consensus seems to be that the coat is the same in American dogs and the native dogs, that it's all in the grooming. Yet, the coats in those photos look different than any Samoyed I've seen. Does anyone have some pics of ungroomed Samoyeds?

What is felting exactly? I always thought that it was when the top layer of hair matts/sticks together. The dogs in those photos appear just to have flat coats.

Last edited by Xandra; 08-12-2009 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:32 PM
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Boemy Boemy is offline
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The coats of the dogs on the sled/in the snow look much different than the coat of the dog in your sig, IMO. Much flatter and less showy and poofy (showy in the "flashy" sense, not "dog-show" sense.) Maybe it's partially due to grooming. But looking at the dog lying on the sled, I don't see how his legs could possibly be groomed out to look as poofy as the dog in the siggie.

I think asking a bunch of reindeer herders will get you a more knowledgable result than asking a bunch of show breeders, who naturally will support the show-bred coats.

He appears to have been correct in that samoyeds originally came in colors, not just white, as I discovered from this:

http://www2.polarcomm.com/~newman/SA...owwithpics.pdf

"Abruzzi makes these statements concerning the dogs: 'they are varied in
color, white, white and black, brown and gray with pointed ears, up and curled tails with deep chests'."

There are also pictures in the PDF, some of the dogs are clearly dark colors.
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Last edited by Boemy; 08-12-2009 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:47 PM
sammgirl sammgirl is offline
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Thanks guys. I'm not trying to stir a debate, it was just that I didn't believe what pops said, and frankly I still don't have the faith in him that I do in those that actually are involved in the breed.

FYI- many of those that replied actually do work/sled/weightpull their dogs and know first hand what they're talking about unlike some people who seem to think they know more then what they actually do.

I think I'll stick to what they've told me, because they have the most knowledge on it. And if you know if any nomadic reindeer herders in siberia who have email, let me know.

Otherwise, I'm going to stick to what the breed club says and believe that.

I think that any debate that occurs from this I will stay out of, because my mind is made up and I'm comfortable with what I've heard. AGain, thanks for your attention and for reading my posts.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:30 PM
Pops2 Pops2 is offline
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yeah i knew this was coming
first i did mix up the Sami (lapps from Scandanavia & NE Russia) with the Samoyed (pronounced sami yed). they are a related people. both names mean the people and both are from the uralic language group.
i was not mistaken on the coat issue. and i probably know as much about the breed as some in the club and more than some especially the BYBs who also belong to the club for appearances of legitimacy (happens w/ all breeds that get serious BYB action).
the Samoyed should actually be a very versatile dogs as it didn't become a sled dog until the russians introduced dogsledding to the Samoyed people in the 1880s. before that it was used to hunt & herd reindeer which the Samoyeds used for food & transportation. but then i honestly don't know that much about the breed.

Nenets (one of the northern Samoyeds)
Google Image Result for http://www.e-pics.ethz.ch/index/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/images/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Dia_023-016_16003.jpg

Selkups (the only remaining southern Samoyeds, ignore the GSD and look at the sled dog next to it)
http://gdb.rferl.org/1DE749C3-83E9-4...w800_mh600.jpg

Samis
File:Saami Family 1900.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
for comparison of coats on other strictly sled dogs
alaskan husky
http://www.alaskan-husky-behavior.co...-pictures7.jpg

greenland dog (husky)
Greenland Dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

east siberian laika (developed by eastern neighbors of eastern most Samoyed people for hunting & moderate sledding)
Google Image Result for http://static.gotpetsonline.com/pictures-gallery/dog-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/east-siberian-laika-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/pictures/east-siberian-laika-0001.jpg

please understand i am not downing the breed. they are a nice likable breed and when we settle somewhere more northerly the wife would like one or maybe two. i will work it(them) along side a east siberian laika or two as hunters & casual sledders. but that is after retirement which is still a few year off yet.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boemy View Post
The coats of the dogs on the sled/in the snow look much different than the coat of the dog in your sig, IMO. Much flatter and less showy and poofy (showy in the "flashy" sense, not "dog-show" sense.) Maybe it's partially due to grooming. But looking at the dog lying on the sled, I don't see how his legs could possibly be groomed out to look as poofy as the dog in the siggie.
I'd bet a lot of it is grooming. I don't know much about Samoyeds, but have seen Pomeranians and Chows in show coat, vs. ungroomed. They seem to have similar coats to the Samoyeds. Left 'au naturel' they are definitely much less 'poofy' looking.
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